Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

118: A Fistful of Apple Watches

Shopping in apps vs. websites, WWDC hotels, and MacBooks. Lots of MacBooks.

Episode Description:

Sponsored by:

  • Bushel: Simple Apple device management and protection for your workplace. Designed to make the complex tasks simple so you can focus on your business.
  • Harvest: Simple, beautiful online time-tracking software. Use code ATP for 50% off your first month.
  • Fracture: Photos printed in vivid color directly on glass. Use code ATP15 for 15% off your first order. (Marco's app-icon Fractures)

MP3 Header

Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So I hear you. I hear you really like new max these days, huh?

⏹️ ▶️ John So if some follow-up nice try Casey

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John why don’t you tell us about marathon running?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well last show we talked about what? What you might want out of the watch

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re using it to do not just fitness tracking in terms of how much am I? moving kind of fitness,

⏹️ ▶️ John but More serious how far have I run? Where have I run and we mentioned

⏹️ ▶️ John a GPS? being superior like a dedicated, those dedicated big ugly GPS things

⏹️ ▶️ John being superior to just a watch because the watch doesn’t have any GPS. Aaron wrote in to say that

⏹️ ▶️ John his experience with the Apple Watch as a runner are not great even when the phone is with him. He says that

⏹️ ▶️ John the quality of Apple Watch’s ability to track depends on how you hold your phone. If you hold your phone in your

⏹️ ▶️ John hand or wear it on your arm it does a very good job. If you wear it on your waist then it under measures your run by about 5%

⏹️ ▶️ John which of course is terrible if you’re a serious runner and you want to know exactly how far you ran. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ John so he goes on to say that, uh, what was it? He and his wife,

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, that we really like the extra abilities the watch give us. We can control our songs and podcasts received and send childcare

⏹️ ▶️ John related messages without fear of dropping our phone in the cement. And there’s a grocery store on their route that takes Apple pays.

⏹️ ▶️ John They can use their watch to pay for things there. Uh, as a result, you know, so they’re, they’re annoyed by the watches

⏹️ ▶️ John inability to accurately track their runs because they don’t like to wear their their phone on their arm or hold

⏹️ ▶️ John it in their hand but they do like all those other abilities so right now they’re running with two watches

⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple watch on one hand and the Garmin GPS thing on the other and he says you can’t wear them on the same

⏹️ ▶️ John wrist because they literally press each other’s buttons so this is not this would not be like

⏹️ ▶️ John featured in an ad for I guess for the Apple watch showing someone running with their Garmin GPS

⏹️ ▶️ John watch and the Apple watch but apparently this is the current reality for people who

⏹️ ▶️ John are really serious about exactly tracking their runs. But it’s interesting that Apple Watch has tagged along

⏹️ ▶️ John for the ride for its other abilities. And for like, even like the minor ones, like, well, why don’t you just bring your phone with you? Then

⏹️ ▶️ John you can text childcare related things or whatever. What do you need to bring the watch? Well, you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want to bring the big phone. And so you bring the watch just so you can have a slightly smaller thing that you don’t have to carry that

⏹️ ▶️ John you can text from. And it seems like that is enough of a use case to get that watch to come on board

⏹️ ▶️ John for the run.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, the phone has to to be with them in order to send and receive the messages. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got to imagine that doing so from the watch for simple things is a lot easier than

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting your phone out of whatever holster like contraption.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right. Like then you can just put it somewhere where it’s like, I mean, it could be in a backpack or an anything like it doesn’t have

⏹️ ▶️ John to be accessible and the whole idea of worrying about dropping it while you’re running you do. I mean, because I don’t know how

⏹️ ▶️ John good people are, right? Could you get a phone out of your shorts pockets while you run or out of a holster thing? And I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John know worried about looking down at your thing. Maybe. Well the good thing is most shorts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pockets are so ridiculously shallow especially athletic shorts that your phone will just naturally almost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John be falling

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out Of it all the time anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John so it shouldn’t be too

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hard to

⏹️ ▶️ John get it out It’ll leap out of your pocket into your hand exactly hopefully

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right well, it’s funny to hear this feedback. I am NOT a Particularly

⏹️ ▶️ Casey serious runner in fact. I haven’t ran in a long time, and I should probably be shamed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for that however However, it’s odd because of the feedback I’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ Casey through Twitter and various websites and whatnot, everything I’ve seen has said that the watch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was eerily accurate. Now again, I can’t really speak to this one way or the other, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the first piece of feedback that I’ve come across that said that the watch wasn’t,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if not very close, eerily close.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, in all fairness, Apple did just release a software update that was after this email came in that allegedly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco improves this and also gives instructions the first time you launch the workout app that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you should you should do like a basic 20 minute walk with your iPhone present

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the watch with running the workout app to kind of calibrate it. We talked about this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John last episode. Yeah, well, this

⏹️ ▶️ John complaint is about even when you have the phone with you, he’s saying compared to his garment that the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John is under measuring if the phone is on your waist, if the phone is on your arm or in your hand,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s fine. But if the phone is on your waist, that’s under measuring by 5% maybe the software update helps us because this this

⏹️ ▶️ John feedback was from before the software update I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah beats me all right what

⏹️ ▶️ John else do we have this is from Christopher and he gives one more reason that runners and cyclists

⏹️ ▶️ John want a cellular radio on their watch this is assuming they don’t have their phone is in case they get injured and can’t get

⏹️ ▶️ John back from wherever they are so if you run or bike long distances and halfway through your journey something

⏹️ ▶️ John happens that you can no longer run because you twist your ankle or something or your bike you know your

⏹️ ▶️ John brakes or you get hit by car or something, you want to be able to contact someone to come and get you or call

⏹️ ▶️ John 911 or whatever and you can’t do that with your watch if you don’t have your phone with you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean that’s a really good reason but that just sounds like if you’re going to be doing something like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a remote area, it just sounds like you should probably just bring your phone.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well I mean, we were talking before, what would it take for you to leave your phone at

⏹️ ▶️ John home? And for people who want to leave their phone at home, I can imagine people who are doing athletic activities every little bit,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if you have it strapped to your arm or your waste or whatever it’s it’s kind of an annoyance and it adds up so

⏹️ ▶️ John what would it take for serious runners and cyclists to leave their phone home it sounds like you know

⏹️ ▶️ John more accurate tracking of where you are so maybe GPS and at the

⏹️ ▶️ John very least some ability to like a 911 call or something or like a you know

⏹️ ▶️ John a single call home or something like that for a cell radio so we’re not there yet but I

⏹️ ▶️ John assume in several more generations this will be possible

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s what we’ve been saying about Max with cellular radios though, and we haven’t seen that quite yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s totally possible right now. We’re there, it is possible. It hasn’t happened, but it’s possible. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think at this point, it’s pretty clear that Apple just does not think they need to put cellular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco radios in Max, because they could have so long ago, and there have been so many opportunities to, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very clear that they just want you to use the phone tethering feature that, I think Yosemite introduced, the automatic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing where it just detects it in the Bluetooth menu sometimes. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John Even when it didn’t auto-detect it, you could still use it for tethering. But that’s their solution, is tethering. We’re just, we should be glad

⏹️ ▶️ John that they didn’t decide that the way you connect the iPad to a cell network is you tether it to a phone. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John why did that one happen to get the cell radio? They could have just said, you know what? All cell radio communication,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you buy Apple products, goes through your iPhone. I almost called it the Apple phone. See what you do on Apple? Make

⏹️ ▶️ John up your mind on the names here. But they didn’t. They said the iPad can have a cell radio too, but no

⏹️ ▶️ John Macs.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, why don’t you tell us about what’s going on in India?

⏹️ ▶️ John This is from Akshay, and it is about the, what is it, the world’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John India’s biggest online retailer planning to go app only. This goes back to our conversation

⏹️ ▶️ John about Facebook Instant Articles and Marco’s doomsaying about the future of the web.

⏹️ ▶️ John Here is an online retailer saying that they’re just not gonna have a website anymore,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess. This place is called Flipkart, and it’s from this article, says it’s going to

⏹️ ▶️ John move to an app-only format within a year. One of their VP says, a year ago, 6%

⏹️ ▶️ John of our traffic was coming from mobile and in less than 18 months that traffic is tenfold. So what is

⏹️ ▶️ John that 60? They can do a math in my head. It seems premature, maybe if 60% of your traffic

⏹️ ▶️ John is coming from apps to say by the end of the year, you’re gonna go 100% app. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re gonna tear down their website. But anyway, this is not just some random place doing this. For publicity.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is a store with more than 40 million registered users and 30,000 merchants selling

⏹️ ▶️ John 20 million products. India is a big place. This is a big store. The fact that they’re planning on even

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to go app only shows that how much things have changed. I don’t think

⏹️ ▶️ John Amazon’s going app only anytime soon, but I don’t know about you guys. When I shop, maybe I’m just

⏹️ ▶️ John an old fogey again. When I shop online, I, the app is sometimes good if I know exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John what I want, but I always feel like I’m getting more of a cut down experience. Even even on the big iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John six, maybe on the six plus it wouldn’t feel as cut down, I want to go to the actual website. And frequently

⏹️ ▶️ John I want to have a big screen so I can have multiple tabs and multiple windows to compare this product to that product

⏹️ ▶️ John and so on and so forth. I, I kind of feel constrained when doing anything serious like price comparisons

⏹️ ▶️ John and shopping and looking for things, uh, from a mobile device. So. I hope the web stays

⏹️ ▶️ John around a little longer because I really don’t like buying things on my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. I don’t shop from any one single retailer often enough to justify

⏹️ ▶️ Casey installing an app, except maybe Amazon. And I recently installed

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the Amazon app. And for the life of me, I can’t remember why, but I believe I’ve deleted it from all my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey devices because I hate using it. I’d much rather go to the website, even on like an iPad,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’d much rather be on the website for the exact same reasons you said, John, that I feel like I’m getting a kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey neutered experience on the Amazon app. And for all I know that could be patently

⏹️ ▶️ Casey untrue, but that’s just what it feels like to me. And one way or the other, I just don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey see the point in having an app that’s really just a native front end for a website

⏹️ ▶️ Casey when it comes to shopping. I mean, you could make the same arguments for like Instagram and things like that, but for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey shopping, I’d much rather use the website. The only exception

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I can think of is the Apple Store app, which I keep on my phone

⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly for the rare occasions I’m going into the Apple Store for things like EasySteel or whatever they call it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And for the rare occasions that I decide to buy watches that I swore up and down I wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey buy. But I don’t know, Marco, do you use store apps or are you a web kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of guy? Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Zapata So I’m kind of halfway between you old fogies and the rest of the world.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m also an old fogey, but in this one particular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way, I’m a little bit closer to the rest of the world than you guys it sounds like. So I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the Amazon app and the Apple Store app. I don’t have any others for stores, but I do buy a lot

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from Amazon. The Apple app is great because their online store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco isn’t really that much better than the app. In some ways, it’s worse. In some ways, it’s slower. The app is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always the fastest way to preorder hardware at 3 a.m. when they do the new releases and stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Touch ID is awesome, etc. The Amazon app is different, but the Amazon app,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn’t install it. I’ve been buying almost everything that I buy from Amazon for years,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I only installed the app about six months ago, but I’ve actually gotten into using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. I don’t usually place orders from the app, unless it’s just like refilling something that I already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know that is good, that I want. Like, oh, we’re out of dishwasher detergent. Okay, you know, add that, whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I do frequently use the app to add things to my cart

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without actually completing the buy process. So it kind of like as a reminder as like a save for later kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of thing. Like if I’m out I’m like like the other day, oh I’m outside, oh let me look up. I keep forgetting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to buy pressure washer detergent. So let me let me look that up quickly and just add one to my car and I’ll go back

⏹️ ▶️ Marco later when I order something off for Amazon next, which is probably gonna be within a couple of weeks. Then I’ll see it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and oh I have to go you know finish this research and buy this or don’t buy this. So it is nice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that. People in the chat are telling me there’s all these abilities about scanning barcodes in the real world

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and comparing stuff. I don’t do any of that yet. Maybe I will in the future. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do see the point of the app. Furthermore, I think us saying, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, we don’t really buy things in the apps. We prefer to buy things in the websites. That’s kind

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of like people saying, well, I don’t like to buy things on the internet. I like to just, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco look things up, maybe then go to a store and buy them. I don’t want to type my credit card in on the internet. Maybe I’ll look something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up in the yellow pages. Like, it just, it’s…

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s the opposite because we, it’s the opposite. It’s more like the comparison I would

⏹️ ▶️ John draw is when the power users complain that all the power user features they want are going away, but it really doesn’t matter because the rest

⏹️ ▶️ John of the world wants a simpler product. And what I’m anyway complaining about is there are features

⏹️ ▶️ John available on the website that aren’t available in the app that I use. And maybe most people don’t use them. And that’s why I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not analogous to like, you know, I’m not ready for the future. I want to buy things in a store instead of online, because in

⏹️ ▶️ John that case, the online experience gave more and more features than the in-person one, because you can comparison

⏹️ ▶️ John shop and do all sorts of stuff when you’re in a physical store. All you can do is look at what’s there. And like the example,

⏹️ ▶️ John what kind of features am I talking about? So recently I bought swim fins for my kids. I had no

⏹️ ▶️ John specific swim fin in mind that I wanted to do, so I wanted to see a lot of reviews. And you can see the reviews in the mobile app, but you can see

⏹️ ▶️ John more of them on the website. And it’s easier to have a separate window with just your views and looking at them

⏹️ ▶️ John and trying to find a fin that you wanted. Eventually you get it and they’re size like one, two, three, four, five. And I have no

⏹️ ▶️ John idea what one, two, three, four, five mean. And so then I want to look at the little question and answers that Amazon added a few

⏹️ ▶️ John years ago. Someone saying, hey, how do I find out what the heck size two means? What size shoot does that correspond to? Or there’s a sizing

⏹️ ▶️ John chart on the people’s website and you pick up the people’s website and you have the sizing chart. And like, I’m the experience of figuring

⏹️ ▶️ John out what swim fin to buy, what size to buy it in. Like that is the experience

⏹️ ▶️ John that I need the website for because on the app, it was harder to get that information. I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John compare two things at once. I wouldn’t know, I don’t know if I would even have found the sizing chart thing, which was like a mouse over

⏹️ ▶️ John thing that made this little table appear on the site that I actually found it on. That mouse over wouldn’t even even worked on mobile.

⏹️ ▶️ John All that information that I know is there. Like Amazon provides me a way to find the answers to these questions, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is one of the reasons I’m shopping in Amazon, all these features that they added. when I’m doing

⏹️ ▶️ John it in the app, all it says is, here’s the thing, here’s the price, pick a size from pop-up menu, and then read the reviews here,

⏹️ ▶️ John and maybe, let’s just, I’m missing features. And I feel like that makes Amazon less valuable

⏹️ ▶️ John to me if they try, because it’s not cut and dry. I’m not just like ordering my next run of paper towels from Amazon to

⏹️ ▶️ John come in. It’s like research for something I wanna buy, and it’s the type of research that’s way easier

⏹️ ▶️ John to do online. I’m not gonna go to 17 different sporting goods stores and have to do it at a time when I can drag my kids there so they can

⏹️ ▶️ John try on swim fins and everything. I know their shoe size, I gotta find a swim fin that people say is pretty

⏹️ ▶️ John good, that’s not a piece of junk, that has a reasonable price, that it will ship in a reasonable amount of time, that is sized the way I

⏹️ ▶️ John want it. And I guess what I’m saying is it’s not app versus web that bothers me, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John features. If you make a web application, if you make an iOS

⏹️ ▶️ John application that, for example, runs on the iPad and gives a fancier, more feature-filled

⏹️ ▶️ John purchase experience than the phone version does, I would probably be all on board with that. I’m not tied

⏹️ ▶️ John to the web because I specifically like the web. I’m more tied to having a big screen where I can

⏹️ ▶️ John look at lots of things at the same time and having access to all the features that these e-commerce sites have added over the years that are

⏹️ ▶️ John useful for figuring out what the hell

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want to buy. Well, and that’s exactly it. You know, obviously in the case of us looking up stuff on Amazon,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco looking at reviews and specs and stuff, Amazon was built for the web first and the web

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is probably still their biggest platform. But I think it’s clear to see the trend lines

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here, where more and more activity and browsing and computing and purchasing is being done

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on mobile, and so much of that is being done in apps, not on websites. And that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number seems to be increasing. And if you look at the store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Flipkart in India, their customer base is dramatically increasing it. And that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could have to do with differences in cell phone adoption versus computer adoption in India versus here,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but for the most part I think we’re seeing the same general trend everywhere, which is mobile is taking over big-time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and apps on mobile are way more important than websites on mobile for the most part today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that that trend is only going more in that direction. It’s not like we’re waiting for the web to catch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up on mobile. I think the web is not going to catch up on mobile. But there’s probably going to be both website

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web stores and app stores for most major retailers for a long time. The main problems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have, As you said, this is an implementation detail just among the Amazon app today versus the Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco website today. That’s going to change over time. They’re going to make the app better. They’re going to make more stuff possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the app. They’re going to make stuff better in the app because that’s where they should be pouring their attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as people use it more. Amazon’s good about that. They will do it. Steven

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Connelly Yeah, I think that you’re definitely in the popular crowd in thinking that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the app is the way to go. I think that John and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey are kind of clinging to our old old timey ways, but I just, I don’t like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to have, I don’t like to have any app on my phone that I, that I either

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t use regularly or don’t absolutely need in a pinch. Like for example, Uber, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t use regularly, but man, when I need it, I want it to be there and the Amazon app, like John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has said, doesn’t really help me in any way that I use anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it hurts me in that it prevents me from doing things like having multiple tabs open and things like that. So.

⏹️ ▶️ John And like I said, I don’t think it’s old timey versus new. I think it’s features. And a good example of this is the

⏹️ ▶️ John App Store, which has a web interface, but it’s terrible. No one, like, you can’t actually do it from the web. But say you

⏹️ ▶️ John could, like, you know what the web, if you land on one of the web pages for the App Store, there’s like nothing there. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do anything. It’s just like the shell of a thing. That’s a case where the application has more features.

⏹️ ▶️ John And even though it’s a website, and even though it’s a big window and you can have multiple ones open at once, you would never want to do that, because

⏹️ ▶️ John the features that you care about, like even just like reading more than three reviews, I think the web ones just show like an abbreviated

⏹️ ▶️ John version of a couple of reviews or whatever, the app has more features there. And so it’s not so much app versus

⏹️ ▶️ John web. It’s like, where are the features and maybe it’s just like, okay, Amazon was born on the web and their and their

⏹️ ▶️ John app is crappy. And newer stores that are more app native will do a better job.

⏹️ ▶️ John I could see that happening. But the second level problem is what Casey was talking about why he doesn’t want to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a million stores on his phone, like the web, put Safari there and you get Denny Web Store.

⏹️ ▶️ John And you know, this is this actually is a reason that retailers probably love apps. The apps, you’re not going to have an app for every store,

⏹️ ▶️ John you are going to necessarily be limited by the store apps that are on your device. If you’re in like

⏹️ ▶️ John an app mindset, like I buy things through apps. If you don’t find yourself buying things through Safari,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s kind of like, well, I can go to Target, but I can’t go to Kmart

⏹️ ▶️ John because there’s no Kmart in my town, like the other one is really far away. It’s like, well, you know, Kmart exists and you know, you can

⏹️ ▶️ John get there, but you know, convenience sake, you’re going to go to the one that’s close to you. If you only have five apps on your phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re like, well, I could buy this thing at some other location, but I don’t actually have that app on my phone. I have this

⏹️ ▶️ John app on my phone. So let me do it. I’m not going to go to the app store and download like you can’t download every retailers app. So

⏹️ ▶️ John retailers getting their apps onto your phone, because once you have like, say you have Uber, do you also have the Lyft

⏹️ ▶️ John app? Do you also have the whatever, you know, competitor to the Uber is going to come out in the future. you’re gonna have 17 different

⏹️ ▶️ John apps for getting rides, or you’re gonna pick maybe one or two. And once those one or two are on your phone, it’s harder

⏹️ ▶️ John for the competitor to get their app on your phone, because you already feel like you have that need covered. Whereas if they were all just

⏹️ ▶️ John websites, every time you launch Safari, it’s up for grabs where you end up based on like a Google search or

⏹️ ▶️ John a bookmark or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but a lot of that applies to the web too. I mean, like having your credit card saved

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a site, having a good online purchase experience or a good online store. I mean, there are so many things that I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just buy on Amazon because I used to buy them on their vendor’s site,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but their vendor’s site is slow and awful, and it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much easier to just order it from Amazon, so I just do it there. Like, there are these same kind of, like,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lock-in style effects on the web. That isn’t really that exclusive.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, it takes a little bit of a step. But

⏹️ ▶️ John I think in a web, you’ll do a search, though. Like, you’ll do a search for something. Like, you don’t know where you wanna buy something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like you won’t feel yourself limited to, if you’re starting in a store, you’ve already chosen

⏹️ ▶️ John practically where you’re gonna buy it. Whereas if you’re starting on the web, you don’t know where you’re gonna buy it yet. You’re just trying to

⏹️ ▶️ John see what’s out there, what kind of options are out there, you know? Even something like the Sweet Home, where you’re like, I don’t know anything

⏹️ ▶️ John about whatever it is, like, you know, humidifiers or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like I’m gonna find out what is a good humidifier to buy. If you start that by launching

⏹️ ▶️ John an app, you’ve already practically decided where you’re gonna buy it just going to say what seven humidifiers is Amazon

⏹️ ▶️ John have if you did a Google search you might end up on like Marcos humidifier thing you might end up on the sweet home or whatever and that

⏹️ ▶️ John could leave you to a store eventually but you would be learning about what to buy like

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know I see advantages to the app approach if you do the app well I see

⏹️ ▶️ John advantages for the vendors but I see a lot of downsides for like sort of unconscious lock-in sort of the old

⏹️ ▶️ John school unconscious lock-in of the stores that are actually near your house influence where you buy stuff in the pre internet

⏹️ ▶️ John days.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sure, but you know I think my Yellow Pages remark earlier applies to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a large degree here, which is like if you look at the world today, apps and web,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco etc. right now do you think you could launch a new restaurant or a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new shop in a town without having an entry in the Yellow Pages? But the Yellow

⏹️ ▶️ John Pages was just a directory, like you weren’t actually going there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, but okay, but a lot of people when they would need a a certain type of business or be searching

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a type of store or a type of business person, they would look in the Yellow Pages for a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long time. So- Yeah, but Web Search replaced that, though. Well, so what I’m saying is, this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a metaphor, John. This is a reference. So what I’m saying is that at some point,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today you can launch something new and you don’t really have to think about placement in the Yellow Pages or buying

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an ad there because enough people find stuff on the web now that it’s probably not even worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your time to make an entry the yellow pages for your business anymore. It’s very possible there will come a time where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a major retailer or any size retailer where so few people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are buying stuff on web pages versus so many buying stuff in apps that when they have to decide

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how to allocate their resources and whether to have only an app or only a website

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or both there can come a time if this trend continues where the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco website is just not worth it to build and maintain for them.

⏹️ ▶️ John So you’re saying that their website is like the Yellow Pages?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m saying we’re heading in a direction where websites might become as relevant as the Yellow

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pages are today. And I don’t know that we’ll ever get there, but that is the direction I think that we are heading

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that answers the search question, though. Like, when you’re, I mean, just think of like, what are the good restaurants

⏹️ ▶️ John in this area? Right? Like, when you don’t already know where you’re going to end up. Because that’s the

⏹️ ▶️ John whole thing. With a bunch of apps, you are picking a store. But what if you have no idea where you’re gonna end up, or you just wanna know,

⏹️ ▶️ John hey, what’s around here, or what’s out there that we can try? You need some way to

⏹️ ▶️ John find what’s out there. And you’re not gonna do it. You’re certainly not gonna do it by searching the App Store. You’re not gonna go to the App Store

⏹️ ▶️ John and type restaurant to find, I mean, just think of it. Think of it if restaurants had no websites,

⏹️ ▶️ John they only had apps, and even in your own area where you live, you just wanna know, hey, have any new restaurants

⏹️ ▶️ John opened in this area? Are you gonna go to the App Store and try to find a restaurant app for a restaurant near you? The app store

⏹️ ▶️ John can’t even let you find Angry Birds reliably.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, no. You might search the app store for restaurants and find something like Yelp,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you didn’t already know about it, which is probably unlikely. The app store is different.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The app paradigm of using apps to interact with computing things and buy things, just like when you moved to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the web, things were different in a lot of ways, when in this move to apps, things aren’t all going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to work the same way. Certain things will take their place. So in your case, you’re saying, are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you going to search for restaurants in the app store? No. You’re going to open up the Yelp app and search for restaurants there.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s going to be all these silos. If you want to buy an object that’s sold in stores usually, you’re going to go to Amazon or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever. If you want to find restaurants, you’re going to go to Yelp and something like that. If you want a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco taxi, you’re going to open your taxi app, whichever one that might be that you choose in your area. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the interaction paradigm on mobile. You don’t start at a universal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco search box and get shown tons of spam. But

⏹️ ▶️ John most of these apps you’re talking about are just web views inside a container anyway. And

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I feel like

⏹️ ▶️ John it is making but what I’m saying is it’s making it’s making it worse because it’s good for the

⏹️ ▶️ John people who are selling these things because they’re like, oh, people will be locked in because they’ll have their app on our phone and let us use their

⏹️ ▶️ John app. But it’s bad for us because people are taking what used to be sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John on a more level playing field and confining it inside these little containers and having their own icons on

⏹️ ▶️ John our home screens. everything ups and it makes everything worse and one one places app

⏹️ ▶️ John might not be as good as another places app and so on and so forth just for the container stuff let alone what’s inside the page it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well the same applies to websites there i mean it’s it is going to be different we know that it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn’t necessarily worse in every way it’s better in some ways it’s just it’s different it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco better

⏹️ ▶️ John for the it’s better for the vendors how is it better for us

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things load fast i don’t know no they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco it’s just a web view it’s not an app you gotta get away with

⏹️ ▶️ John the app launch. I think it’s just not better for us. Unless I mean, unless it’s artificially done, like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s better for us in the App Store, because Apple’s web version of the App Store is just so bad. That’s one way

⏹️ ▶️ John they can make it better is everyone make your websites way way worse until the app version of it wins

⏹️ ▶️ John because the websites are basically useless.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, they’re doing a great job of that already. Websites today are terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know the Amazon versus the Apple and they’re not doing it. I’ve never used this flip card thing. So I can’t say I mean, let’s think of

⏹️ ▶️ John some what’s one thing that you routinely buy through an app that you don’t buy through a website? I guess Instagram, I mean it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not buying thing, but they have a website too but it sucks. Uber I guess, do they even have a

⏹️ ▶️ John website? Probably not, that’s app only right? I have no idea. What else can you think of that is a better

⏹️ ▶️ John experience of buying through an app than through the equivalent website?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The Apple Store app is pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I would say that I don’t necessarily think it’s better because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t do everything, You know, Apple’s website is functional,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but mediocre in a lot of ways for the store part. It works, you know, most of the time.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It doesn’t usually show errors or anything, but the app is good enough and the app actually is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco faster because it isn’t loading all the Chrome and stylus sheets. It seems to access some kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco separate API that doesn’t go down as much during the major product launches, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has Touch ID Apple Pay for checking out, which is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey awesome. It has more than that though, right? Because it has genius reservations, if not creation

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of, then check-in for. It has easy steal or whatever

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s called, where you scan the barcode and then pay through the app and walk out of the store.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you’re like me, you’re holding your iPhone up to anyone who is looking anywhere near your direction to show

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that you’ve actually paid for this thing, that it looks like you’re stealing. It has some functionality.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And this comes back to what John was saying earlier. It has functionality that you can’t get through the website. And that’s, I think, in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey large part why I like the Apple Store app so much.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, you know what else also, John? I can buy things on the Amazon app without ever entering a password because I entered it once and said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco save it. And on the web, that doesn’t quite work. On the web, you always have to go through the login form when you’re buying something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I know there’s ways that they can do it without that, but the fact is they don’t. So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco another thing. It’s faster. If you know what you’re looking for, an app shopping experience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can be a lot faster. If you can go into it, if it has decent search and you can jump right there and hit the checkout

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. And if there’s any steps they can skip by the security of the phone, like touch ID for Apple pay or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco skipping passwords, it can be faster. In many cases, it is faster. What you’re describing, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about wanting to open up a bunch of tabs and do research side by side, that is worse. You’re right. The web is probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always going to be the better platform for that.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just mean like, like structurally, is it worse to, to have a bunch of apps like that?

⏹️ ▶️ John pinning you down in ways in artificial ways rather than you thinking that it’s a greenfield

⏹️ ▶️ John and you have access to all the world’s vendors you are necessarily limited to the icons that you have put

⏹️ ▶️ John on your phone and there’s some inertia to dislodging those icons or adding a new one or

⏹️ ▶️ John or remembering which app or grouping them together like i said how many different apps you’re going to have to do the same job as

⏹️ ▶️ John uber does whereas if uber was not an app native platform like i i feel like it is

⏹️ ▶️ John constraining in a ways that benefits the vendors it doesn’t benefit consumers for mostly

⏹️ ▶️ John no good reason. There’s a few reasons like you said the biometrics things or whatever but again Amazon has the one click

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and really that’s not that big of a hurdle for you know like

⏹️ ▶️ John checking out at Amazon I feel like is below the threshold where touch ID it’s cool

⏹️ ▶️ John for us to be able to do it but most people they just click click click and go through and I know a lot of people

⏹️ ▶️ John like to have I are afraid to turn on one click because it’s too fast. That was already too

⏹️ ▶️ John fast. That’s not even biometric. Uh, and I think both of you were, I think we’re, we’re startled by how easy it was to

⏹️ ▶️ John drop however many hundred

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco dollars on

⏹️ ▶️ John an Apple watch just by going tap, tap, whoop, done. Yeah. You know, like so good for vendors,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe not good. But anyway, I was thinking about the company, which companies do, which companies do have better

⏹️ ▶️ John apps than websites. Uh, and so it’s, it’s companies that started, you know, sort of the app world like Uber,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, or Instagram, they were always at first their websites, if they existed at all, or thoughts. So their apps are better,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? It’s companies that have always been terrible at the web like Apple. I guess that’s the explanation.

⏹️ ▶️ John Why are their apps better than their web versions? Because they’ve never really been good at web stuff. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so their apps win. And then the other companies that either started on the web, like Amazon, or even things

⏹️ ▶️ John like airlines, like airlines have apps, but their their web experiences usually have more

⏹️ ▶️ John features or more ways to like, you know, research which seats you can do and get a better diagram. Now, if you didn’t see this,

⏹️ ▶️ John you can enter your number there and do this thing and the app doesn’t show you that path, right? Things that you can only do from the website that you can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John do from the app. Airlines, everything sucks. Yeah, they’re bad at everything, but still their apps are more feature

⏹️ ▶️ John poor than their website. It’s like, oh, when you’re making your reservations, make sure you need to go through the website

⏹️ ▶️ John because on the app you don’t get this option and that option and you want to do this one because you can get more leg room for less cost

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. Like it’s a weird split and I don’t know, especially

⏹️ ▶️ John for the big ones like, you know, Amazon, eBay, things that have some critical mass is difficult to

⏹️ ▶️ John overcome. Are they perpetually going to have worse apps than their websites? Will they figure it

⏹️ ▶️ John out and reverse it? Or is it only the new companies like, you know, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not gonna think besides Uber and Instagram, some other like companies that came of age in the app era where they never really

⏹️ ▶️ John considered websites and their whole product was always an app.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we should plug a new website that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has come out since I believe the last time we recorded. This is Cosmodrome by

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Brianna Wu. John, do you want to tell us a little about this?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is a linked list style site, as she calls it, sort of modeled on Daring

⏹️ ▶️ John Fireball. Only that it’s just going to be a bunch of links, not a bunch of original writing there for the most part. And so what’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the big deal about that? It’s a million sites that have a bunch of technology links and stuff. This one is

⏹️ ▶️ John like any site that has a single person behind it. The idea is the voice of the person comes through This is Brianna’s voice

⏹️ ▶️ John and she’s intentionally trying to put in links that have the best content from tech and gaming

⏹️ ▶️ John because she’s obviously runs a gaming company and she’s also into tech. So it’s not just going to be like, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John regular tech industry stuff, but mixed in with game industry stuff. And she’s trying to amplify voices of women

⏹️ ▶️ John that she respects and women in the industry. So she’s got an introductory post explaining what Cosmodrome

⏹️ ▶️ John is about. You can see it in the show notes. I find myself and this is another example of

⏹️ ▶️ John apps versus the web, I suppose. I saw that this link thing was there, I’m like, I’m never

⏹️ ▶️ John going to see anything on that site unless it has a Twitter account. Because that’s how I see all

⏹️ ▶️ John of my links. I follow the Twitter accounts that belong to like and Daring Fireball and Casey’s site. Wait, you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John one of those? Yes, I don’t like RSS. Twitter has just eaten RSS in my life. I

⏹️ ▶️ John subscribe to the Twitter accounts of all these sites. And I mean, so this is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I still have an RSS reader. I still use reader with two E’s on the iPad to read news, but it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John a different set of things like I have the things I use RSS feeds for and then have the things that are that get to be in my Twitter feed

⏹️ ▶️ John and obviously the Twitter feeds it’s a few smaller number of sites just the important ones. But yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m now basically in the Twitter app. Since I said, How do I see that when you post the you posted

⏹️ ▶️ John something that we’re going to talk about later in the show? How did I see that? I see it on Twitter? How did I read it by following like on Twitter, if

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t have time to read it at that point, I would have instant is the paper did from Twitter. And I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t think I ever go to your site to see if there’s anything new on your site. And I don’t think your site is

⏹️ ▶️ John in my RSS feeds anymore, because it’s the type of site that as soon as something is published, I want to know about immediately. And I do

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s on Twitter, and I keep up with my Twitter. So anyway, Cosmodrome blog is a Twitter handle,

⏹️ ▶️ John we will put a link to the introductory post in the show notes, check it out.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’ve been following it since you tweeted it. It’s very good.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, you know, I’m still stuck on john saying that you are one of those people that gets all your links from

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Twitter,

⏹️ ▶️ John not all my links, but the ones that like if I want to know as soon as something is posted, or you know, or like,

⏹️ ▶️ John especially with a link listing, you’re not going to read everything you’re gonna say is, am I interested in following that link or not? I mean, it’s not it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the words of somebody writing something down. And a lot of blogs are a mix, like Margot does some link posts, and he does some posts on his own, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John So there’s a handful of things that I subscribe to in that way on Twitter. And I will know as soon as someone posts something

⏹️ ▶️ John on those things, because I keep up with Twitter, right.

⏹️ ▶️ John But RSS is for, let me see the last whatever

⏹️ ▶️ John umpteen news stories from our Ars Technica RSS. I don’t subscribe to the giant Ars Technica Twitter.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t even know if they have one. If there was a Twitter feed that showed everything that RSS posts, there’s no way I would

⏹️ ▶️ John subscribe to that. I would fill my feed. I would never look at anything. I use my RSS reader for that because then you can just go boop, boop, boop, and look at all

⏹️ ▶️ John of them at the same time and view them more quickly and so on and so forth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, the only such Twitter account that I follow, like I don’t follow

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Org on Twitter. It’s in my RSS feeder. I don’t follow Daring Fireball on Twitter. It’s in my RSS

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reader. But I follow my own to make sure things get tweeted and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John it You should follow hypercritical because once a year maybe something

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco post you want to know better right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco away You know, what’s really great to follow a bunch of sites like that RSS readers.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah agreed now, but you’ll never notice in the RSS reader You’re like you’ll never even look at that section of the RSS reader.

⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. Here’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s your problem right here SS readers if you if you have so many subscriptions

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you are missing items constantly because they’re buried in a different section.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yep. You have too many subscriptions.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. A lot of subscriptions. I do.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don’t keep I used to actually keep

⏹️ ▶️ John up with RSS but that was like years ago right. You know I wasn’t a completionist but I was a Marcus Red completionist

⏹️ ▶️ John and like in the glory days in that newswire. I had tons of feeds and at the very

⏹️ ▶️ John least every day I would decide that I’m not going to read something. I would

⏹️ ▶️ John go through everything that’s there and either say, I am going to read that or I’m not going to read that. And I would read the things that I’m going to read.

⏹️ ▶️ John And most of the stuff you’re not reading. But that passed, I don’t know why that passed. That passed just, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ John because the volume just increased. I didn’t even follow that many more feeds, but the volume of all the feeds increased. Think

⏹️ ▶️ John of what the Ars Technica RSS feed was when I first followed it. It was a couple of

⏹️ ▶️ John posts a day. Now it’s like a fire hose. And you just multiply that for every site that I followed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco unsubscribe because you’re not really reading them all.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well I’m not a completionist anymore I don’t care like I go to it when I go to there and you know I

⏹️ ▶️ John just yeah I just mark huge swaths as read because it’s like all out of date info but I find a few yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John I still subscribe to a lot of things but most of the things I actually care about

⏹️ ▶️ John are on Twitter and that’s only maybe five six sites.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco See this this is why we can’t get through follow-up or topics in a reasonable amount of time because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every everything that we do we discover something about each other that is worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John discussing and we

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to nitpick it to death.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Pretty much. That follow up already

⏹️ ▶️ John ended once we once we ended the Cosmodrome thing then we were just talking about other stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love doing this show with you guys. Alright our first sponsor it’s a new sponsor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this week it is Bushel. B-U-S-H-E-L. slash ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So Bushel this is really interesting you know how iOS devices if you have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a real job and you have a company. There’s all these configuration options you can do to kind of manage a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fleet of iOS devices, Macs. You can use configuration profiles and everything. Doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, though, it is not an easy thing to set up or manage. Bushel is a hosted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cloud service that basically does that management for you in a really, really nice interface.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So here’s what it is. It is a mobile device management MDM system.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Cloud-based, awesome web interface, very simple to use and it lets anyone easily manage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple devices in a workplace. This includes iOS devices, iPhones, iPads, iPod touches, John,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and even Macs. I didn’t even know Macs could do this stuff but they can. So Bushel lets you easily

⏹️ ▶️ Marco set up and protect Apple devices that you distribute to your team or even devices your team already has.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco With Bushel managing your workplace’s devices you can easily provide and manage access to company

⏹️ ▶️ Marco email accounts. This is pretty cool. So you can you can send like at the profile out and send the configuration out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to these devices and the employees don’t need to manually configure all the stuff all the server settings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and everything to access their email the company email or you know make sure you can make sure they have SSL enabled all this all this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco cool stuff you can also install work apps any apps from the app store you can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco install them to every device all at once you can also enable settings

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that will separate and protect your team’s personal data and personal apps from their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco work data from your company and that way another great feature is that if a device is ever lost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or stolen, you can remotely lock it or you can completely wipe all the company data portion

⏹️ ▶️ Marco off of it remotely. Really cool stuff. They have a device inventory section. You can see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco capacities. You can see which user is using which device, which apps you’ve installed on devices, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco much more. You can even configure company-owned devices through Bushel without having to physically touch them first.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s pretty cool. You can basically get a box, give it to somebody shrink-wrapped, and have already configured the device

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that when they take it out, it’s all set up. Really cool stuff. With Bushel, you can do all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this and much more all yourself without an IT department. It’s all integrated into one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco seamless, fully responsive web interface. So you can manage your company’s Apple devices wherever you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want wherever you are. Remember, this is both iOS devices and Macs, iPad, iPhone, iPod touch and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mac. Bushel makes the complex simple so you can focus on what matters.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Your first three devices, if you’re only managing three devices or fewer, that’s free forever. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want to add more than three devices, it’s just $2 per month per device after that. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really affordable. $2 per month per device past three. No contracts,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no commitments. It’s very, very simple. Nice, reasonable pricing. Learn more at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s This sounds really cool. So thanks a lot to Bushel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for sponsoring. I even think like beyond workplace, you might even want to just do this yourself for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your own devices or your family’s devices. There’s so many good uses for this. So thanks a lot, Bushel.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So in the last, what, 24 hours, we have our first

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Watch OS update. So we are now on Apple Watch 1.0.1.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe it’s pronounced watch us. Watch us. 1.0.1. I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey have installed it Marco of you. I presume you’ve installed it as well.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have nothing happened. It was glorious

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m disappointed. They didn’t call it a firmware update. Remember those days Yeah, yeah, the iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ John would get a firmware update It was it was an OS update in all the same way as it an OS ever was but they hadn’t yet

⏹️ ▶️ John decided to call It an OS was hey, it couldn’t even run apps, right? It was a firmware up. It’s like a watch firm I guess the watch

⏹️ ▶️ John can run apps, but yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well in any case, I just wanted to point out a couple of initial impressions I had.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve talked to a handful of people, and a lot of us agreed that third-party

⏹️ ▶️ Casey apps and glances especially just feel quicker. I have no concrete

⏹️ ▶️ Casey evidence of this. I have no quantitative evidence of this, but it just feels quicker to me. Marco,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey would you say that’s the case?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think so. I mean, it was hard to tell initially because in the previous 1.0

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version, after a clean reboot, things would be faster and more responsive for a while. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, you install the update you have a clean reboot so it would feel fast immediately.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So far though in the day and a half that we’ve had it so far I have not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had an app lock up permanently forever. I have not seen an infinite spinner and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of that is because I’m using very few apps now but it does seem like they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have improved it so I give this a thumbs up.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah I agree. The only thing that I’m a little shady on is I went for

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a walk earlier tonight and what I did was I went to the exercise app,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I said I’m going for an outdoor walk and I started walking. And by no means

⏹️ ▶️ Casey am I doing a super mega power walk or anything like that, but Aaron and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Declan and I were walking reasonably briskly. And when I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got back from this walk that was like two and a half miles or something like that and lasted roughly 15

⏹️ ▶️ Casey minutes, I got back and I was credited with something like 15 minutes of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey walking. And in 1.0.0, I don’t remember that having ever been the case, that if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I walked for 15 minutes, I would get credit for 15 minutes of exercise.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, was that credit for 15 minutes of elevated heart rate?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and that’s exactly what I was going to say is, this all could be that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey was cheating the system in 1.0.0 and I shouldn’t have been getting credit because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I wasn’t getting my heart pumping quick enough to earn that credit. Now in 1.0.1,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey maybe the heart rate detection is more frequent or maybe it’s just better.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey In one way or another, maybe I just don’t deserve credit for more than 15 minutes out of 50. But it is different than 1.0.0.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And last night, right after I had done my upgrade, I went for a walk and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I could swear that for a little while during that walk, my heart rate read 70 and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am out of shape enough that I can assure, and I was walking quickly enough, that I assure you my heart rate was probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not 70. So this is all very, very anecdotal

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it very well could be user ineptitude on my part since I wasn’t walking quickly enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don’t know, it just seems like that got, that the heart rate related things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey got a little bit worse. But what I’d like to do is, maybe tomorrow I’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really try to amp up the speed and see if that makes a difference.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, give it a shot. Also, try giving a good wipe off to the disc on the back of the watch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had an issue today where on my morning walk this morning, the watch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kept locking as if I had taken it off. Oh, that’s interesting. And so I assumed, oh, the sensor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco must be cloudy or whatever. So I wiped it off, and I haven’t seen the problem again. It did it a few times in the same walk,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the Workout app kept crashing, and yeah, it was not good. But then I took it off later, wiped it off,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I haven’t seen it since. So it could just be that, who knows? Also shave your armor

⏹️ ▶️ John hair.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I’m not a gorilla like you are, John, but I will keep that in mind.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So John, how are you enjoying WatchOS 1.0.1? Oh, it’s great.

⏹️ ▶️ John I love seeing screenshots of people updating their OS on one device by running an updater on another device,

⏹️ ▶️ John and then making sure the watch isn’t a charger when they do it, it’s very exciting. What I wanted, like, they were always paranoid

⏹️ ▶️ John about it, like, you know, the iPad and iPhone updates used to be like, well, you have to have at

⏹️ ▶️ John least 50% battery power, and if you don’t, you have to be connected to power before we’ll run the updater and stuff, and the watch, it’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John even more, it’s like, no, just unconditional, it seemed like from what I read, connected to the charger,

⏹️ ▶️ John period.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think the reason why, first of all, keep in mind, like, if a software update on the watch goes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad, the recovery options you have are as far as we know pretty limited

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because you can’t just plug it into iTunes and hold down two buttons and have it go in DFU

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mode. We don’t know if there’s anything that a home user can do. This

⏹️ ▶️ John probably gotta be like a wireless, like put it into recovery mode where it’s just looking for

⏹️ ▶️ John a wireless signal that will signal to it, okay, I’m about to take you over and shove a whole new image down

⏹️ ▶️ John your throat.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Probably,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah. And then the other thing is the update, for me it took a pretty long time. I would say it probably

⏹️ ▶️ Marco took 20 minutes. And during that time, the screen was on the entire time, showing the progress.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think that is probably why they require the power. Because if you didn’t have it powered,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you would slaughter the battery life just doing the update.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, not just for the screen, but because it’s doing I.O. on its little solid state storage

⏹️ ▶️ John for the whole time. That’s all it’s doing. And over the normal course of events, the watch is not constantly reading and

⏹️ ▶️ John writing from its disc. Exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we should probably plug something else that’s going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on, specifically during WWDC week. So whether or not you happen to be going

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to San Francisco, App Camp for Girls is doing a fundraising happy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey hour that is being thrown by WWDC girls, and that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going on the Wednesday night of WWDC week. Now if you’re not going to San Francisco that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week, that doesn’t mean you can’t help out, And it doesn’t mean you can’t donate to AppCamp for Girls,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is a really great organization that seeks to improve

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the interest of, and increase the interest of, young girls and young women

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in app development and programming and things of that nature. And so ATP

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is going to be sponsoring the Happy Hour. I know I will, at the very

⏹️ ▶️ Casey least, be going there for a little while, if not the entire time. Marco, I think you are also going. Is that true?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we will be there for at least a little while. So if you wanted an excuse to stay high to us

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then I would certainly do so in all likelihood. We’ll probably be there the whole time I just I’m afraid to guarantee that because WWDC

⏹️ ▶️ Casey week gets a little crazy But anyway, but ATP is sponsoring we’d love it. If you could

⏹️ ▶️ Casey show up tickets or what like $20 suggested donation Yep,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you can’t make it you can just you can donate on the same form You can just say all right, you know what? I can’t make it but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here’s you know, ten bucks or whatever Please do that if you can’t make it. This is really a fantastic organization

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing fantastic work and we couldn’t We couldn’t possibly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recommend strongly enough that please support it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I definitely wrote in a donation That was considerably more than $20 for my ticket

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I encourage you if you happen to be going and and you have the means to do so I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey encourage you to do the same thing and just like Marco said whether or not you’re gonna be there Please feel free to donate

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to App Camp for Girls. It’s a really, really great organization. And like I said, at the very least, Marco and I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey will be there to say hi to everyone and shake a few hands and take

⏹️ ▶️ Casey selfies, if that’s your shtick, et cetera, et cetera. So please check it out. We’ll put a link in the show notes. That’s App

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Camp for Girls, the Wednesday night of WDC week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s evening, it’s like 5.30 p.m. So it doesn’t take up your whole night. It’s a happy hour thing, so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nothing else is going on during happy hour. So if you’re there, you can totally make it. Yep, exactly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Before we leave the topic of WBDC week, I also want to mention the Release Notes podcast

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from our friends Charles Perry and Joe Chplinski, They did a great episode

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this week. It’s episode 105 on WBDC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tips and kind of an overview of what’s going on that week, what events, what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parties, what other conferences are going on. Our friend Jesse Char is putting on a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco conference called Layers, which looks fantastic. There’s so many good big names that are going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be speaking there. I actually bought a ticket to that. I’m going to be basically balancing both, attending both WBC

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that. It looks amazing. That’s, I think.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The Layers conference looks great. There’s also Alt Conf, which also has an amazing speaker lineup.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now there is so much going on that week that I almost feel like if you don’t have a ticket,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have more options. Yeah, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey really worth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that way. There’s so much going on. So definitely check out those conferences. Check out the release notes

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast. They did a much better job than we will of going over all the options that you

⏹️ ▶️ John have. It’s bad enough that WWDC is multi track and you can’t actually be like some sessions.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now the entirety of that week is multi conference multi track.

⏹️ ▶️ John You are doing it. You Marco have a ticket to both layers and WWDC and you can’t be in

⏹️ ▶️ John both places at once. So it’s on certain days you will be deciding I’m going to be layers in the morning and here

⏹️ ▶️ John in the afternoon or whatever. Yeah. And that’s before even considering multiple tracks is layers multi track or single.

⏹️ ▶️ John I believe it’s single. All right. So it’s that single at least but then WDC was multi anyway too much stuff jammed into

⏹️ ▶️ John one week.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But this is a great problem to have. I mean it’s much better than you know what would have happened if Marco

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I didn’t get tickets to WBDC and we wanted to go to San Francisco anyway. I mean not I’m sure

⏹️ ▶️ Casey we would have found something useful to do during the daytime when we weren’t at the conference,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but now we have all sorts of options that were hypothetically, we would have had all sorts of options of things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to do. And that’s kind of exciting because one thing I feared is that over the years,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as less and less of us win the lottery and are able to go to WWDC, the conference,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would, I was wondering if, you know, would I go to San Francisco during that week in the, in future

⏹️ ▶️ Casey years if I didn’t have a ticket to WWDC and if things like layers and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey alt-con for going on, then heck yeah, I will. I mean, that’s awesome. So this is really exciting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m really thrilled that people in the community are stepping up to make this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey even more inclusive for those who don’t have a ticket to the big show. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m really stoked.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this is really great work that the other organizers are putting on. There’s even like on release month,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they were talking about how they’re hosting a viewing room as part of Alt Conf in a big theater

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where you can go and watch the live streams and watch session videos as they’re released. So like if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want if you don’t have a ticket but you’re gonna be there and you want to do and you want to see

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the live stuff and you want to watch the sessions they’re setting up a room that everyone can watch it it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing like and they’re and they aren’t the only ones doing this a lot of people do viewing parties get-togethers with with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a projector to watch the live stream or whatever so many people do this kind of stuff it’s really great and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you know the fact is a lot of people you know it’s it’s hard if you if you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know a lot of people out there if you don’t have friends it’s hard to find some of this private stuff but now there’s things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like alt conf and layers that are like these are public events that anybody can go to alt conf

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is even free I mean anybody can go to these things so like even if you don’t have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco friends out there already or you don’t know a lot of people out there there’s now still options even for that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s that’s fantastic because that that really you know it’s it’s hard to look to like break into the social

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crowd of certain app developers that you know that if you don’t know anybody, this provides ways to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s really great.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now all this is doing is making hotel prices even higher. Yeah, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey true. Yeah, they were terrible this year. I mean, they’ve always, they’ve been getting progressively worse,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I feel like, maybe it’s all in my head, but I feel like there was a big jump this year.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, you know, maybe, like, so maybe, maybe the hotels have finally figured out what happens this week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, what happened is the, is the Park 55, the Park 55 was always our, was our cheap go-to the last few years, and it got

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bought by Hilton.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think like the Pickwick was expensive this year though, wasn’t it? Like everything was expensive.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s insane. I’ve stayed at the Pickwick one year and I think it has since been refurbished, but the time

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was there, let’s just say you get what you pay for.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, but the problem is in San Francisco, you don’t get what you pay for because you can pay like 300 bucks a night for a hotel room.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But in San Francisco during WBC week, $300 a night is on the cheap end. And so you can have like a cheap

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crappy hotel and have paid $300 a night for it. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s the the room rates this year are like

⏹️ ▶️ John every night that you’re staying in San Francisco You could buy yourself a new Apple watch

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s me. Originally. I don’t remember who it was.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But

⏹️ ▶️ John well, you know, it’s one, you know When I’m shopping for hotel prices way before the lottery,

⏹️ ▶️ John which by the way, this is another we’re not doing WWC tips this time But this is another thing that people who go to WC frequently do

⏹️ ▶️ John is book your hotel Reservations before you even know when WC is going to be because

⏹️ ▶️ John hotel reservations are really easy to cancel All you need is like 24 hours notice usually right so

⏹️ ▶️ John book your hotel reservations and when I was doing that if you’re not going to go pick quick like everything

⏹️ ▶️ John was $350 or more and so yeah it was just like just just consider

⏹️ ▶️ John one more day one more Apple watch I’m not getting hope another Apple watch sport

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco going out the window

⏹️ ▶️ John let me chuck this Apple watch sport out the window it’s just every day you’re there you’re just burning Apple watches it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the unit of currency instead of paying for rooms you’ll just trade in a fistful of Apple watches with their

⏹️ ▶️ John little green bands sticking out.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I love

⏹️ ▶️ John that image, that’s amazing. That’s like a gasoline is the currency in Mad Max, right? So well,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco in San Francisco, the currency is just

⏹️ ▶️ John the wads of Apple watches.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Colorful

⏹️ ▶️ Casey sport bands. Yeah, well, the Pickwick is at least better than the, what is it, the Maser? David

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Sparks was saying on the talk show.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, this is one with shared bathrooms, you get progressively, and that probably is still $200 a night.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Our second sponsor this week is Harvest. Harvest is a beautiful business tool for tracking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time spent on client projects. If you do client work, time tracking is such a major

⏹️ ▶️ Marco part of it as Casey, you know this, right? With Harvest, no matter where you find yourself working, the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco focus stays on the task at hand. So it’s very simple. You’re working on something, you start a timer for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. You can start these timers from anywhere, your web browser, your desktop, your mobile device.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tracked hours appear in beautiful visual time reports. And then when all is said and done, and all the work is done,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can create an invoice. Well, the work is really never done, but when you need to get paid, you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can create an invoice with billable hours right in Harvest. Everything’s all integrated. Harvest gives you the tools,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco data, and visualizations designed to keep projects on time and within budget. And you can use these

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tools. You can see for yourself. You can see data, like which clients and projects are actually making you money

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and which ones are really just costing you because you’re putting so much time into them that you can’t make that much money back.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So Casey, I’m curious, you work in the consulting business. How useful is a tool like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Harvest to really boost your time tracking skills?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, it’s hugely useful because I am an erosion on the bottom line of the company if I am not billing a client.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And so you bet your butt that I need to make sure I’m billing every second

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m working for a client. And something like Harvest does a really good job of making sure that I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do exactly that. And the key to this is it being extremely low friction, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s exactly what this is. So I definitely recommend having Harvest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something along those lines, preferably Harvest, to do this, because if you’re anything like me, doing it in your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey head is just a recipe for disaster.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly. So Harvest gives you all the tools to make this painless. It’s beautiful,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s accurate, and it gives you all the reports so you can see how things are working. You can make sure you’re getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco paid. You can make sure you’re making money. It’s all integrated. Check out Harvest,,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and start tracking time painlessly. Now there’s a 30-day free trial. This is fantastic,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just try it out. 30-day free trial, After the end of the 30 days, use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coupon code ATP at checkout to get 50% off your first month. Don’t procrastinate,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do it today, you will not regret it. Check it out today., don’t forget

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use coupon code ATP at checkout for 50% off your first month. Go right now, start a free trial.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Thanks a lot to Harvest, for sponsoring our show once again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it occurred to me just a moment ago that the new MacBook Pro

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the same style as the new Mac Pro was prior to the trash can. You

⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, where they just kind of slapped a new sticker on what was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John already there and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said, yeah, yeah, this is totally new, you guys, you should buy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John one.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s a little bit better than that. They changed the trackpad. Yeah, and it has a new SSD.

⏹️ ▶️ John The new Mac Pros, there was no new features. It was

⏹️ ▶️ John literally just an internal upgrade that was not a significant one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was like two different processor options and a price drop on one of them. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a real update. It’s just a really small one. You know, they did upgrade the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco SSD to be the new PCIe x4, I believe.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s significant if you were doing anything that was I-O bound, because it’s not like the SSDs are like 10% faster. They’re like 2x,

⏹️ ▶️ John which is, that’s good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there was a great benchmark on barefeet that showed them all, and it’s really like, the SSD

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the newest, I believe it’s the 13 and 15 Retina MacBook Pro and the new MacBook, the 12-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook One, I believe those are all now faster than the SSDs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are in the Mac Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because the Mac Pro just hasn’t gotten this update yet.

⏹️ ▶️ John The Mac Pro is comfortable in that position of being the machine that is just never updated while the lesser machines slowly

⏹️ ▶️ John pass it by.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly so yeah, it’s I mean it was an update the the issue

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as with almost everything in the last year is that Broadwell chips have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not shipped yet for the quad core so you know Intel has had such major delays with Broadwell It’s I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s almost a year later than it was supposed to be they just barely got the broadwell chips out for the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco low Power model so the ones that are used in the MacBook one and the ones that are used in the MacBook air And I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the 13 should get Bravo. I think it did too But the quad-core Broadwell chips are still not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out. We’re getting close to Skylake’s intended release date. Like, Skylake’s supposed to come out this fall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or next spring. At this point, it’s pretty clear what’s happening here is that Intel,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all their production delays on Broadwell, they just can’t get the quad-cores out in time that Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wants. Then Apple needs to do an update. Oh, they also updated the GPU. That’s a big thing. I don’t know anything about these GPUs,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but the old GPU, everyone said, was really getting ancient. and GPUs move so quickly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s plausible. The new one is probably not gonna satisfy people because people are never satisfied with the GPUs Apple picks,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it will at least be newer and probably faster. So that’s important for a lot of people. It doesn’t matter to me,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it’s important for a lot of people. So I get that. But for the most part, the problem

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is there’s no new CPUs to use. So the CPU options, and I believe even the motherboard chipset,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the RAM, everything is the exact same as last year in those departments. So it is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of a half update. No USB-C either, right? Correct, yeah, no USB-C,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no external case changes. They did, because they did the Force Touch trackpad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they did add 4% more battery wattage to it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m assuming, they didn’t say this, I’m assuming it’s because the Force Touch trackpad is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thinner and so they gained a little bit more space under it, so they probably could fill that with battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the battery in this. They could have done their

⏹️ ▶️ John scalloped or terraced batteries too. I could have just you know wedge more stuff in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well I think they would have said so if they did though I’m guessing that’s not here yet because that would have that would have probably involved

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a redesign of the whole top case which is where They’re where the batteries are bonded, and they didn’t do that So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it I’m guessing it’s literally just like the battery was able to get 4% bigger because of the space gain with the force to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco extract Bad and that’s it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so this is a relatively unimpressive upgrade is what I’m hearing

⏹️ ▶️ John well like This in this case. It’s we get frustrated. It’s like oh, this is a

⏹️ ▶️ John bad update but it’s so clear that this is not Apple dragging its feet. It’s Apple like

⏹️ ▶️ John going like, well, should we should we just is are they going to be out or should we wait or no? And now we can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John wait. Like, I wonder when they made the decision to say we have to go with this sort of half update, you know, because, you know, they can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John they can’t ship machines with chips that aren’t available to purchase from Intel. Right. And it’s a shame.

⏹️ ▶️ John But there are that’s the position they’re in. So this is a half update, but it’s the best

⏹️ ▶️ John they could do. and like timing wise, could they have done the half update earlier? Some people were complaining

⏹️ ▶️ John like, look, if you weren’t going to have Broadwell chips, why did you?

⏹️ ▶️ John Why? Why the delay in releasing even these? And we don’t know. Like maybe it’s took this long to just get this

⏹️ ▶️ John design together, you know, because they made this decision several months ago that they weren’t, you know, it’s it’s a shame,

⏹️ ▶️ John but it is what it is. And I think with these machines, most of the things I’ve seen

⏹️ ▶️ John from discussions from Marco and other people’s like, if you have a recent retina MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, should you buy one of these machines? And it’s like, well, you really have to look at the few things that got better in them. Are you

⏹️ ▶️ John doing stuff that’s IO bound, in which case the SSD is a big deal? Yeah. Are you doing something with GPU round, in which case the GPU

⏹️ ▶️ John is better, but otherwise, CPU is a small bump, blah, blah, blah. But ignoring that saying you

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t have either you don’t have a Mac laptop, or you don’t have a MacBook Pro, or you don’t have a retina MacBook Pro.

⏹️ ▶️ John These are still pretty good machines. Like it’s not like this is a dog, like you buy this, oh, you bought one of

⏹️ ▶️ John those crappy ones. We’re just, we’re kind of like purely judging it as how big a leap over

⏹️ ▶️ John the previous one it is. Is it? Whereas if you’re using a non retina MacBook from a long time

⏹️ ▶️ John ago, or you’ve never purchased a Mac, this seems like a perfectly fine machine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right? Yeah, I mean, you know, I said in my post, like, so I’ve been using a 2012 15

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inch retina, the very first retina MacBook Pro. It’s been I love it, it’s been

⏹️ ▶️ Marco awesome. The only downside to it is that usually when I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a cross-country flight using Xcode and serious computing stuff the whole time,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually I need about an hour more battery life, or maybe occasionally two hours more battery life

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to really be happy with it. That is the only time that I’m not 100% satisfied with this machine,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is so good. And since then, since 2012, they actually have gotten,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they’ve gotten that extra hour or an hour and a half just by improvements from going from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ivy Bridge to Haswell and you know a couple other minor improvements. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I really don’t it turns out I don’t like force touch. I like it on the watch it’s fine. I really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t care for the force touch trackpads that are in the laptops right now. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tried them in the store and then I’ll get I’ll get to I guess we’ll get to by my mistake one in a minute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I just don’t like them. I don’t like the way they feel. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do feel like you’re clicking a button. And it is a really cool thing. It’s a really cool technical

⏹️ ▶️ Marco achievement. It’s very impressive. It does feel like you’re clicking a physical button

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the most part. I would say it feels like 80% right.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it’s kind of like an uncanny valley situation. Like it almost feels like you’re pushing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a good button, but not quite. And that not quite really irritates me. and it doesn’t feel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a good button press. It is really impressive that it works as well as it does considering that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s no moving parts. But I just, I really don’t like it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I like the previous generation 15 inch so much that I actually ordered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yesterday’s, or you know, last week’s model, which is the 2014 model, I actually ordered one of those

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on clearance from Amazon for $18.50 to replace because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mentioned earlier, I really need to hand this computer down to a family member and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I kind of wanted to, I kind of wanted a new one just to get a new battery

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to get that extra hour because like even though this is great, it also has a three-year-old battery in it because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s three years old. So I can still, this one still works so well that I can still hand it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco down to a family member or I could sell it for a good price if I don’t need to hand it down anymore. And so we’ll

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. I really do think that the base model 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is an incredibly good value. It is the most machine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that most people need. The base model 15-inch is usually $2,000. You can usually get a refurb

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or a clearance or just get it from a resale like Amazon for $1,600 to $1,800. That’s a really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good buy compared to getting like a 13-inch and speccing it up to be similar

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that you know that’s only a few hundred dollars less usually. The 15-inch is so good, so powerful,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so fast. The screen is huge. You can do so much with it. It has all the ports

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that John needs. It’s great. So I that’s why I like it so much.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I compared it, John will appreciate this, I compared it to the Honda Accord.

⏹️ ▶️ John I saw the comparison and I don’t think it quite made sense what you’re trying to say is that you can get a surprising amount for your money

⏹️ ▶️ John but like maybe if you confine your context to just retina

⏹️ ▶️ John macbooks or just apple laptops then it fits that but still it like at 1600 to 2000 this is a fairly expensive

⏹️ ▶️ John laptop in the grand scheme of things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well it isn’t a fairly expensive mac laptop it’s a mid-priced mac laptop that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John i’m saying like so once once you can once you can find it to max i would think that the Honda Accord

⏹️ ▶️ John is probably more like the 13-inch Air because it’s got the non-retina screen

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s not even an IPS screen or whatever but that thing does all the things a laptop is supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to do. Is it easy to carry? It does all the stuff. It has the ports. It’s like it is a complete thing

⏹️ ▶️ John whereas you demand as we know from both your cars and your computers a little bit

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco more perhaps than the Honda Accord

⏹️ ▶️ John and its four-cylinder engine has to offer VTEC notwithstanding Oh, hi Vtech,

⏹️ ▶️ John sorry. So you are shopping in a different class of things. So I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it is more apt to call that thing the 535i. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not the M5, right? But it’s still a premium product. It’s large, it’s got a big engine,

⏹️ ▶️ John and the 13-inch air is the Honda Accord. Anyway, I don’t think it matters which car these things correspond to. Bottom

⏹️ ▶️ John line, it’s a very nice machine.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And what I discovered is that it is by by far the machine I’m happiest with.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If I get anything smaller than a 15, there are trips that I take that I really regret it. Not all trips,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of trips I can take and I wish I had the smallest laptop possible. You know, trips where I’m not really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco coding, I’m not really working, I just need to, you know, keep up on email and stuff and browse the web sometimes. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s, and I don’t like using iPads for that, sorry everybody. But, you know, that’s fine.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so this is exactly why you felt the urge to go out and buy a brand new laptop that is not the 15 inch.

⏹️ ▶️ John because you like new things that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco briefly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yes so I’ve had mixed experience with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with new things the 5k iMac is the best computer I’ve ever owned it’s amazing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m so ridiculously happy with it the Apple watch I’ve had for you know since day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one so what is that about three weeks now love it I love I’m so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I I so love the Apple Watch. For a 1.0 especially, it’s an amazing product.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is not perfect, but it is really, really good. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enjoying it more than I expected to. I like it. I use it a lot. It has made me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually increase my physical activity level on a regular basis so far. It is so good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am so happy with the Apple Watch. And again, so happy with the 5K iMac. I’m so happy with the 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop line. I like a lot of things. I thought

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would like to have the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ John One. Can you explain to people what the MacBook One is?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The new MacBook with one port.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yes, we always just talk about it as that. I think who coined that term, is that Marco? I did, yeah. Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John yes, that’s what we’re talking about. The really skinny MacBook with one port that we talked about for like seven episodes

⏹️ ▶️ John complaining about the fact that it has one port.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Exactly, we’re gonna talk about it a little more now, but it’s all right. So for years I’ve been thinking, You know what,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love to have a bedside tiny computer that I could occasionally

⏹️ ▶️ Marco write blog posts on, answer email, if I go up to bed early and I wanna like.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well stop, when do you ever answer email? I don’t have a computer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to answer it on.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey that’s the problem.

⏹️ ▶️ John We made fun of everyone for the day phone and night phone, but now Marco is purpose, is

⏹️ ▶️ John buying laptops specifically for use within certain rooms of his house. Yes, my upstairs laptop, my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco downstairs laptop, no. Oh my God. So you know, I was waffling for years over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the idea of maybe I’d go pick up a used 11 inch Air from somewhere because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for my purposes of blogging and emailing and stuff, it wouldn’t need to be high spec at all.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It could be very slow, it doesn’t need to be new, it could be fine, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would use that. And then occasionally when I do take these trips where I don’t need to get any work done,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I just wanna keep up on email and stuff, I can bring that as the laptop instead of bringing my big 15 inch.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this was my thought, and for years I’ve been thinking about this and not doing it. And when I saw

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook One in person in the store, I was really tempted by it from the very first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time I saw it. And through various watch trips and repairs, I’ve actually been to Apple stores a number of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco times since it’s come out. And every time I go, I always go over to the MacBook One and I look at it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I type on it, I’m like, can I live with this? Can I live with this keyboard? I know it’s a weird keyboard, but can I live with it?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it is just so small and so light and the screen looks pretty good.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it isn’t as good as other Retinas. I was wrong about that. But it is close.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it is better than the 11-inch air screen, that’s for sure, than on Retina. So it looks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great. This machine, you see it and you’re drawn to it. It’s like a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lust. You see this and you’re like, oh my god, this is such a nice machine. The business rep

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in my store, I mentioned at one point that I was possibly interested didn’t want at some point

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they emailed me saying they had one in and I thought you know what I’m about to go on a trip this weekend where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would be the perfect trip to test it out on let me try let me let me get it I think I’m ready I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think this is a good this is a good idea for me let’s see how do I put this our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco third sponsor this week is fracture fracture print your photos in vivid

⏹️ ▶️ Marco color directly on glass go to fracture fracture photos are awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have a bunch of them around my office. I got, let’s see, five, six now? Oh wait, no, more over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there. I think I have eight in my office right now. So many of these things, they are fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So really, it is a photo printed on glass. You go there, you upload your photo, and by the way, it doesn’t have to be a photo.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So three of mine in my office are icons for the apps that I’ve made, as kind of like these little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trophies, or these little like showpieces of like, here’s the row of apps I’ve made, and these are these little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco glass prints to hang on the wall. They look fantastic, right? And then I have photos. Family photos,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fun photos, illustrations. I got a couple of those up here and there. They are fantastic. It is such good quality

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on these fracture prints. I always get compliments on them. People always ask about them. They ask where they can get them. People who

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know Fracture, who know of them through the podcast, if they’re here, they’ll be like, oh, are those the Fractures? Like, they always ask about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. So many compliments. They’re so good. So really, it is a piece of glass.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a thin piece of glass adhered to like this foam board thing so that you can put a nail in it and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the photo was printed on the back surface of this thin piece of glass and so it shows through the front

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and so it’s protected it doesn’t scratch off or anything it doesn’t look weird it also doesn’t need a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco frame which is really cool because then you know you normally you get it you get on his

⏹️ ▶️ Marco photo printed then you got to get a frame for it or get a custom frame which is really expensive and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it doesn’t kind of look right just having photos hanging on your wall by themselves. With Fracture, it is its own complete product. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco looks great. You don’t need a frame. It is fantastic. It is clean. It’s modern. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very well priced. They put everything you need to get your photo on the wall or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco desk right in the box. So prices are just $15 for a 5x5 inch square. They also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have rectangles. 5x5 is a great size for Instagram photos because it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big enough that you can see it. In fact, most of mine are that small size, but it’s small enough that if you only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have like a low-res iPhone shot, the photo still looks great even at that size.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Every Fracture is handmade and check for quality by their small team in Gainesville, Florida. It is the thinnest,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lightest, and most elegant way to display your favorite photos. I really do very highly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recommend Fracture. They are so good. They make great gifts if you want to give them as gifts for holidays

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or birthdays or whatever or just send them to your friends as gags or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as gifts to your friends. If you have a photo of you and your friend looking funny or whatever, you can send them. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is so good. I can’t recommend Fracture enough. And really, they get so many compliments in my house.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re just great. So you can get 15% off your first order with coupon code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP15. Please use that. Don’t use Gruber’s code. Use our code.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, use whatever you heard last. But using code ATP15 will let them know that you came

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from our show. So once again, go to and use coupon code

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP15 for 15% off your first order. Thank you very much to Fracture. Photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco printed directly on glass. It is so good, highly recommended.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So tell us about your big mistake.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I really, I talked myself into the MacBook One. I said, you know, for this purpose that I’ve wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a while, it would be amazing. Because the one thing with the 11 inch Air is the non-retina screen. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a pretty big thing for me. I really care a lot about retina, and I really don’t like using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco non-retina screens. And MacBook One, I thought, you know what, this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let me give this a try. I think I might love this, actually. And so I bought it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I brought it home, and I used it for about 36 hours, pretty heavily.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco A lot of people were criticizing me for reviewing it after only having it for a day and a half. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s somewhat fair, but I just really hated it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So what did you hate? I knew the keyboard was gonna be weird. That being said, so every time I was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the Apple store, I think I saw it in person maybe three times before buying it, so every time I saw it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would go to it, I’d open up the Notes app, and I’d just start typing something long, just to kinda see, can I get used to this keyboard?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Every time I was getting better at it, and I started realizing, you know, I actually, this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fine, I can type on this. I don’t like typing on it that much, but I can do it. So I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably get used to it and it’s probably gonna be fine. And I got it and I got it home and I started typing a lot on it as I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was setting it up. And then I installed all my chat apps on it so I’d be typing more, I installed Slack, and I installed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter, and then I installed email and I started responding to a bunch of my email.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I did a lot of typing on it. And I got really fast with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Speed was not an issue at all. I was… and accuracy wasn’t that bad either.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco My big problem with the keyboard is just that it doesn’t feel good and it actually… to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me it actually feels bad. And you know, I guess I want to be careful here to not like…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to not say that people who think differently are just wrong and stupid. This is my opinion of course,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I really don’t like the keyswitch feel. Part of it is the short travel of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the keys, which everyone cites as, yes, they’re very shallow, they don’t push down very far. Also,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me, part of it was the way they click down. It is like a key switch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is kind of a soft actuation on a regular keyboard. These are, they’re like tiny

⏹️ ▶️ Marco little like hard like dimple buttons. Like it clicks like bubble wrap. It’s like there’s like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a snap when you push it in. And it doesn’t, it feels like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco buttons. It doesn’t feel like keys, if that makes sense. Is it also noisier? Did you say that in your review or

⏹️ ▶️ Marco somebody else? It, I think it is. It sounds different. I would say it’s noisier.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The trackpad is a little bit quieter. Keyboard’s a little bit louder. So I think it depends on what you’re doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it had a weird sound, and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco could definitely see other people in the room being annoyed by it if I were to use it in a workplace that was not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco full of the same computer. Yeah, it is weird. It’s clicky, but not in a good clicky keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way. It’s just a very strange keyboard. I also did not, as I mentioned earlier, I didn’t care for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the trackpad, the Force Touch trackpad.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wait, hold on, before you get to the trackpad, can you just remind everyone, what is the keyboard you’re used to using,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey say, with your 5K iMac?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The keyboard I use is, on a regular basis, is the Microsoft Sculpt Ergo Economic,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or Ergonomic. So the Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop Keyboard, I don’t know, it has like four words.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of them is Sculpt, one of them is Ergonomic.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But this is not a traditional, like, clickety-clackety keyboard like a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey popular Apple people use.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I’ve tried those in the past. I have not found

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an ergonomic one of those that fit me very well. There are very few ergonomic mechanical keyboards.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The one that was my favorite was the Matias or Matias Ergo Pro. I did a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco review on my site a couple months ago when that came out. That was my favorite one of the mechanical ones, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Sculpt Ergo from Microsoft just fits me a little. Like the curvature of it just is more comfortable for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me, so I stick with it. It has scissor keys like laptop keyboards, like other laptop keyboards. It has,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, like a, like a, they’re, they’re shallow, but not that shallow. Then they have like the scissor mechanism under them. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they kind of squish down. Um, it’s not a clicky keyboard, um, but it’s fine. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it a lot. But more importantly, you like the keyboard on your 15 inch. Yeah. And, and you know, like the,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the, the keyboard that Apple’s been using on laptops forever. I mean, even before this, the, the G4 keyboard, um,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, that, that, that, that’s where I started my Mac life. And I love that keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco too, it was fine. And the current keyboards that are on every Mac laptop except for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the MacBook One, I think they’re great. I’ve never had any problem with them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re not like, I don’t type on this and say this is the best keyboard I’ve ever used, but I also don’t think about it because it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. It is completely forgettable in all the best ways. They’re just good keyboards. And until

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you use a bad keyboard, you don’t really appreciate quite how good they are.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Do you

⏹️ ▶️ John think that if you used this keyboard for a longer period of time you just would have accepted this in the same way

⏹️ ▶️ John that you accept the inferior to your Microsoft Sculpt keyboard but otherwise like you just get used to it? Like if all

⏹️ ▶️ John the laptop keyboards were like this and you had no choice and you used it for like a year would you eventually settle into the same

⏹️ ▶️ John compromise where it’s like well I prefer my desktop keyboard obviously it’s better but these are fine?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure I could. A bunch of my friends have these computers and love them. love them and I was asking some

⏹️ ▶️ Marco questions here and there on Twitter and privately and everything and somebody said I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it was Paul Haddad from tweetbot it’s a perfectly fine keyboard once you get used to it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’d never use any other keyboards because it is such a different feel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from other keyboards that it is very strange to transition between and even though like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have no trouble transitioning between my split ergonomic Kirby keyboard on my desktop and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the straight keyboard on my laptop. I’ve no trouble, like I’ve never had an issue getting used to one or the other or transitioning

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even though they’re physically very differently spaced apart, very different keys, etc. With the MacBook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One it is such a different feel and you have to press down with so little depth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but still a similar amount of force. Like this is part of my problem with it. Ergonomic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboards are designed, like they’re really good ergonomic keyboards like from Kinesis, they’re designed very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco carefully to modulate the amount of force that you need to push a key down so that you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pushing too hard. If you have to push too hard, or if you have to push hard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough that after it has actuated you’re still like kind of bottoming out, like you’re still slamming the key into

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the floor of the keyboard further than you have to to actuate the key press, those are all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bad for RSI and ergonomics. Those all really exacerbate things like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco carpal tunnel syndrome and various other RSI things. They really are not good. And so these keyboards are designed very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco carefully such that they match the level of pressure required to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco depress a key and how far it needs to be depressed with the way people’s fingers work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the way people type and how like your fingers are all different strengths. Your outer fingers like your pinky

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ring finger, those are weaker than your index finger or your thumb. And so like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the really fancy ergonomic keyboards like the Kinesis will actually have different key presses, different key

⏹️ ▶️ Marco press forces rather, on different keys depending on which of your fingers are intended to hit them. So the keys in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the middle will be harder to press than the ones towards the edges because then you know your weaker fingers press the ones towards the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco edges. So all this care is put into keyboard design for very good reasons

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it really does matter it really does make things feel better or be more or less

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problematic for RSI sufferers and I do have mild RSI problems and I manage them by doing things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like using a split keyboard. Not as bad as John, but I do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to avoid RSI problems. The MacBook keyboard, the MacBook One keyboard,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it really, I have concerns for ergonomics, for long-term use of it, more so than the regular

⏹️ ▶️ Marco laptop keyboards.

⏹️ ▶️ John You’re saying you think it takes more pressure, more force than the

⏹️ ▶️ John non-MacBook One MacBook keyboards?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it does. I don’t have it anymore to do a side-by-side test, But I did some while I had it,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s different. Because as I mentioned, the way the keys click down is a different type

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of click force and a different type of response. Not just being more shallow, it is really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very different feel to the click. But I had some concerns using it about

⏹️ ▶️ Marco RSI. And I was a little sore after my day and a half using it. Now

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s too early to say whether it’s the keyboard’s fault, or whether it’s just because it was different. You know, that could go either way. So I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not claiming that I had a problem from that keyboard necessarily. But I do have concerns

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because it seems like the ergonomics of it are substantially worse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this one key way, no pun intended, of the pressure required

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to depress the keys and then trying to avoid the slamming against the bottom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the bottoming out of pushing it too far. The way these keys are designed, the shallow travel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes it very hard not to bottom out like that. But the key switch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco type where you have to kind of press hard to get it to actuate makes it even harder

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to avoid bottoming out like that. And especially on your less precise fingers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the problems I had getting accurate with it was the key I most frequently

⏹️ ▶️ Marco miss-hit was delete because my pinky has to hit delete, one of my weakest fingers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I would frequently go to hit delete and not push hard enough and have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then go like redo it again because I would type of there because I wasn’t pushing hard enough

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to actuate the far away keys. And eventually, you know, I got used to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it enough that I was able to do that but it was never anywhere near

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as comfortable to use and it was always very frustrating to use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a result of that. Does that make sense?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I think so. Now, you were starting to talk about the Force Touch trackpad.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The Force Touch trackpad is not as bad as the keyboard. I really would prefer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco never to own a laptop with that keyboard. If I had to own a laptop with the Force Touch trackpad,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would deal with it. You know, it wouldn’t be a massive problem for using the laptop. Like, I would deal

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with it. But I don’t like it and I would prefer not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have to deal with it if possible. The Force Touch trackpad, as I mentioned earlier, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is a very good technical achievement, but it doesn’t feel like a good button press. It feels

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a worse trackpad in use than the old one did. It is a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco softer, quieter click, which is nice for noise reasons. It is uniform

⏹️ ▶️ Marco across the entire surface, as we mentioned, because of the way it works, rather than like the older trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has a hinge at the top, and so the bottom of it pushes down the furthest,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so you kind of have to click at the bottom to make the old style work, Whereas the Force Touch, you can click anywhere on it, and it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco matter where you click, and it does the same feedback regardless. My problem is, the old way of having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to click on the bottom, well, that’s fine, that’s what I’ve always done. Like, before that, when there was the button only at the bottom,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the separate button with the old-style trackpads, that’s what we all got used to. That’s why that one was designed that way,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was because you could basically just keep your fingers all in the same spots and do the same thing, and it would still work. The

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Force Touch, even though it is now uniform across the whole surface, no part of that surface

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feels as good as the bottom half of the old trackpad. There’s three different settings for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how firm you have to press and then how much feedback you get as a result of that. As I was pressing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, I didn’t feel like I was pushing a button sometimes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I never forgot that I was kind of mushing my finger against glass. Again, as I said earlier, it feels like 80% like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a button, but not like a button, because it doesn’t get all the way there. Maybe having that deeper force click,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the third level click, maybe that is gonna be so compelling in time that I’ll tolerate it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or maybe, as I mentioned on Twitter, maybe I will just convert into a tap-to-click

⏹️ ▶️ Marco person, which I’ve never been. And I tried it once, I experimented back in college. No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tried it once, I didn’t like it, I switched back. But I just don’t like it, simple as that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the MacBook One has a keyboard I really don’t like, a trackpad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just normally don’t like. The problem is that all the things I would do on it involve a lot of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco typing. So today I decided it was just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not for me and I returned it. Did you let Tiff try it? I don’t think…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn’t. She was making fun of me for even having gotten it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just wondered, like, you know, I’ve heard so many stories

⏹️ ▶️ John of people, regular people going into the Apple Store and not knowing that the button

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t move down, right? Or not realizing that the keyboard was different in any significant way. And I’m wondering how noticeable

⏹️ ▶️ John are these differences to people to people for whom buying a new

⏹️ ▶️ John computer Like I feel like they just expect it to come with a host of

⏹️ ▶️ John minor differences and inconveniences I like my old screen better. I like the way the old laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John was shaped. I like the old laptops color I don’t like this keyboard like if you buy a new Mac every five years

⏹️ ▶️ John You were forced to deal with these things, you know I liked it when the track board had a button right, you know Because if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John if you’re upgrading not very frequently every new Mac you buy it seems like has one of

⏹️ ▶️ John these things where You’re not used to something that you touch on the

⏹️ ▶️ John thing. The keyboard is different The trackpad is different. The screen is different. It’s missing some ports It doesn’t have an optical

⏹️ ▶️ John drive so on and so forth and yet people still continue to buy new computers Just because that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John like the price of doing things. So I’m wondering would normal people

⏹️ ▶️ John even notice that this keyboard is different or would they accept that it is as different as them upgrading,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean I guess we’ve had a long sort of run of trackpad and keyboard continuity so they have to be coming

⏹️ ▶️ John from either the error with the button on the trackpad or, I mean the keyboards have been the same forever except plus or

⏹️ ▶️ John minus some flexibility in the underpinnings but yeah that’s why you know someone who cares

⏹️ ▶️ John less about these things and is less picky frankly would they care and be like oh yeah whatever it’s keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ John you know you can use the trackpad I didn’t even notice anything different about it whatever it’s fine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s that’s very possible I mean you know there there are certainly it is certainly valid to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be skeptical or critical of my point of view here because you think that I just don’t like it because it’s new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s I might that’s I don’t know what I can say is that in the last

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know three four years I have gone through periods where I have regularly used

⏹️ ▶️ Marco six different keyboards I have I I have used five different desktop keyboards and one keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the laptop, one keyboard style on the laptops, because I haven’t changed this keyboard in a long time. Every time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve moved to a different keyboard, there’s been a very short period of adjustment

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a few hours, and then I’m fine. And on this keyboard, on the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MacBook One keyboard, after like an hour, I was really fast and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John fairly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accurate on it. And so I think I was able to adjust to it quickly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just didn’t like it and none of the other keyboards that I’ve used during this time I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thought that way about them like this was definitely the worst keyboard in my opinion it was the worst

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard I’ve ever used. I don’t say that lightly I used to use a gateway 2000 keyboard this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then I use a Dell keyboard at work for a long time back in my first job and I really can honestly say this was the worst keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve ever used. I wanted to like it it’s not that I went into this hoping to trash Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and return the laptop that is the last thing I wanted I really had convinced myself thought that it was going to work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me. I really wanted to like it because physically you look at this machine, you pick it up, you close it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up and you carry it and you’re like, oh my god, this is great. This is amazing. I wanted this to work

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so badly and I just couldn’t. I couldn’t do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I really want to go into a store and try one of these things because I had a similar sort of even longer

⏹️ ▶️ John uniformity of keyboard experience. I used the Apple extended to keyboard from basically 1989

⏹️ ▶️ John to 2003 until after that I made the transition to a series of

⏹️ ▶️ John terrible Apple USB keyboards until I finally settled on the aluminum the current aluminum one that I have now that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John been around for many years and I think maybe these key switches on the aluminum ones aren’t the same as they’re on laptops

⏹️ ▶️ John but they’re very very similar if they’re not identical and so there has been a surprising amount of

⏹️ ▶️ John continuity in recent history and for most of your Mac life of you know

⏹️ ▶️ John keyboard feel and exact keyboard mechanism for the past several years, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m assuming they’re not going to go to this super slim keyboard everywhere because it’s so

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously a compromise for thinness. Why in the world would they do that? And then of course, I have flashbacks

⏹️ ▶️ John of why in the world but they use the keyboard from the 12 inch power book on the 17 inch power

⏹️ ▶️ John book. But anyway, I’m assuming that they will not go to the super shallow

⏹️ ▶️ John travel keyboard and the the little bubble switch mechanism that goes with it on all

⏹️ ▶️ John the laptops for start trackpad of course we assume is going to be everywhere and they’re just going to take that and you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to deal with it. I’m not worried about the trackpad because I hate all trackpads and if I hate this

⏹️ ▶️ John one slightly more so what? Like it’s gonna on a scale from 1 to 100 I like trackpads

⏹️ ▶️ John about a 5 and if this one is a 3 whatever you know it’s not not a big difference

⏹️ ▶️ John but for the the keyboard I’m worried because I hate

⏹️ ▶️ John laptops period I don’t like their keyboards at all, not not because of the

⏹️ ▶️ John key presses, but because I’m missing the keys on them. And if they make them even worse, like maybe I’ll just

⏹️ ▶️ John switch to typing on my iPad with my Apple Bluetooth keyboard or something if I needed to, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is what I do anyway. You know, when I was taking notes of WWDC, I either have a giant battleship notebook, which

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t like, or the little iPad. I don’t like typing on glass, even though I can kind of sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John do it, you know, at maybe one eighth speed. But I

⏹️ ▶️ John also, you know, it’s like the 11 inch air. I would love to have a little air. And like this is like, isn’t this the perfect computer? Beautiful

⏹️ ▶️ John retina screen, really small. But if I can’t type on it, I don’t know. So I really

⏹️ ▶️ John need to try one of these out and see exactly how crazy you are.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, I would, please do. I would love to hear your take on it. Just to, because like, ever since

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I published this, of course, because I wrote something about Apple that was not entirely

⏹️ ▶️ Marco positive, it spread all over the stupid rumor sites the sensational sites today.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know why I blog anymore. These honestly, like when somebody takes my article and puts a sensational

⏹️ ▶️ Marco headline on it and rewrites it, makes it sound way worse than what it actually was. That’s the kind of stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that makes me not want to blog anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, you know, if you want me to doctor, I can word doctor this up to make it. I mean, these sensational ones

⏹️ ▶️ John just took totally out of context. So forget about them. They’re just going to they’re to make stuff up or whatever. But for the other people

⏹️ ▶️ John getting, know, like, does does the the the wording have to do with other people getting

⏹️ ▶️ John up in arms about it making these vulture sites realize that there’s where there’s smoke they can make fire by

⏹️ ▶️ John like setting things on fire and you know making things up I don’t know like you what you’ve said here

⏹️ ▶️ John is describing why you don’t like the keyboard but then in the article you say like you know until now Apple has never

⏹️ ▶️ John shipped a keyboard that it was less than great everything you said is more or less subjective like you don’t feel like it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John flimsy it’s not falling apart it’s not missing your keystrokes right so

⏹️ ▶️ John when when you write about these things transitioning from here’s why I can’t stand this thing

⏹️ ▶️ John to this this marks a decline in the quality of a component in an Apple laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John that had previously been excellent throughout its history that’s what

⏹️ ▶️ John I think gets people cranky and then the vultures come and just you know have their way with a whole article

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think what we need to find out and what we can only find out with time is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether Apple thinks this is really the best new keyboard and whether

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does go into products that don’t need to be this thin or whether it is only ever really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in these like super thin lines of the laptops.

⏹️ ▶️ John I like the idea, the fantasy idea that everyone thought of when they showed the little video is

⏹️ ▶️ John a key cap that goes up and down straight kind of like you know a mechanical key cap doesn’t wobble when you hit it but the scissor

⏹️ ▶️ John keycaps with a little, you know, if you look at the little plastic bits under there, there’s just little bendy plastic bits. And they do kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of like, they do go off center and wobble a little bit when you hit them, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John It would feel sturdier if they just went straight up and straight down. So take the

⏹️ ▶️ John more more sort of like, less wobbly keycaps, but then give them more travel, which

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess would mean you have to change the mechanism because it sounds like your biggest complaint about this is not even so much the travel,

⏹️ ▶️ John the mechanism of the lack of travel forces the key to have the little dome thing like I’m assuming

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s at the root of the the unpleasurableness of this keyboard You

⏹️ ▶️ John know, can you get the non wobbly benefits like the fact that it feels solid

⏹️ ▶️ John that you know And the larger keys and the smaller gaps, can you get that but also have good travel and a key

⏹️ ▶️ John switch? I don’t maybe you can’t like certainly these new MacBook Pro 15 inches are not

⏹️ ▶️ John a measure of whether Apple’s going to do this because we’ve already just said they’re they’re just a stopgap solution

⏹️ ▶️ John and we have no idea what their grand plans are doesn’t even have USB C port so we may have to wait a long time until we find out

⏹️ ▶️ John what does Apple think about this keyboard is it confined to this little skinny laptop

⏹️ ▶️ John or is something like this gonna happen elsewhere it’s very least it’ll be interesting to see if they just make the keycaps bigger

⏹️ ▶️ John and just use the same mechanisms you know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would expect the first major redesign to be next year when skylight comes out because skylight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco introduces Thunderbolt 3, maybe there’ll be new ports, maybe they’d have USB-C ports then.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I would expect the first post-MacBook major redesign

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of another laptop to happen within the next 9-12 months. Whenever Skylake actually can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ship in the 13 and 15 Retina MacBook Pro, I’m guessing that’s when we see it. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ll know in about a year. We’ll know whether this keyboard moves on to other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things or stays here. But I don’t know if it’s possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to use this kind of key switch design in a way that’s good.

⏹️ ▶️ John In a way that you like, because that’s what I’m getting. I don’t know. You are

⏹️ ▶️ John the first person I’ve heard to have a visceral negative reaction to this thing. My

⏹️ ▶️ John bet would be that most people are not in touch with these nuances of the hardware that

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re using. But we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I would say, I mean, Jason Snell’s argument, I think, was very similar to mine. I mean he let the rest of the machine

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit better than I did but his I Very much agree with him on the keyboard Which is he said something something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco along the lines of I got used to it during the review And I could type very quickly on it, but I hated every minute

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it That is basically how I felt about it. I could type on it. Just fine. I got really fast really quickly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it It wasn’t that big of a deal to adjust but but

⏹️ ▶️ John keep in mind where most people do their typing Which is with their thumbs on a phone screen, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is way worse than this keyboard like that is the common experience I’m just I’m wondering like what the tolerance is

⏹️ ▶️ John for this type of thing both because people are just so used to the new computer they buy being different

⏹️ ▶️ John in all sorts of weird ways and they just get used to it and The idea that people seem

⏹️ ▶️ John generally not to be sensitive to keyboard feel At all in my experience

⏹️ ▶️ John like regular people who are not computer enthusiasts who don’t read computer magazines or computer websites

⏹️ ▶️ John Keep up with computing or whatever. I mean, like you said that they could Dell the gateway keyboards those keyboards

⏹️ ▶️ John feel like you’re just pushing something down to modeling clay, they’re just totally mushy. You remember those things? I mean, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what I think of when I think of like the gateway and delve keyboards like they just felt like mush. I’d rather use that. And people

⏹️ ▶️ John just clack away on them all day long in an office and don’t say a word is not even a thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that occurs to them. Now that I’m saying that’s the bar for Apple, like they should find something that is good

⏹️ ▶️ John for people who enjoy those type of things. But I’m thinking what will make Apple change because you know, Apple’s not going to say, Oh, well,

⏹️ ▶️ John some people don’t like the keyboard feel. So let’s make the next one thicker. right? Because they’re down to they’re down to the wire here. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John down to either we don’t put battery under the keyboard, which is going to massively cut into our battery

⏹️ ▶️ John space, and it’s basically untenable. Or we make the thing thicker, like they’re, they have

⏹️ ▶️ John backed themselves into a thinness corner here. And so if they can’t make this work, it’s going to take

⏹️ ▶️ John some significant feedback, there’s gonna have to be some backlash of like, ever, there has to be word on the street among like, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, it’s a USA Today article, like, don’t buy the new MacBook because keyboard it sucks but I don’t see

⏹️ ▶️ John that article coming anytime soon so far I feel like it would have been out there already but we’ll wait and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. Well and what you’re right about like you know they back into the fitness corner here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what aggravates me about this is that they didn’t need to like what what aggravates

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me most about this you know the 11 inch air hardware versus the MacBook one hardware

⏹️ ▶️ Marco proves that they could have done a retina MacBook one kind of computer they could have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco done that even at two pounds, they could have fit all of this

⏹️ ▶️ John in. Oh, but it would have had to be a different shape. I mean, this is the only shape this case could possibly be. Sorry, no room for anything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, but the 11-inch air is the same shape, it’s just a little bit bigger.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, not exactly the same shape. You add one millimeter to this machine, it is no longer good. This is the product Apple envisioned. Accept

⏹️ ▶️ John their vision. Why won’t you accept it? There’s no room for anything else.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the problem. They made this giant compromise on this keyboard.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, time will tell whether it’s clear that Apple thinks it’s a compromise

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whether they actually convince themselves this is better, I don’t know. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John the scissor keys that you like, the ones on your 15-inch, those were also a compromise from the old style

⏹️ ▶️ John of key, because they’ve been gradually saying, how much can we shave off our laptop keyboard? I mean, I’ve got

⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac portable upstairs that has keys that you see on, again, on a Dell and a Gateway keyboard, like

⏹️ ▶️ John huge vertical old-school desktop keys. The life of laptop keyboards

⏹️ ▶️ John has been a gradual thinning of them, how much thinner can you make it, how much thinner can you, So the one that

⏹️ ▶️ John you like is itself a thinness, if you want to call it compromise, or advance. A thinness

⏹️ ▶️ John advance over the previous one, which is an advance over the previous one, which is an advance over the previous one. And

⏹️ ▶️ John they change mechanisms, those things. Going from plunger things to scissor keys, going from scissor keys to dome switches.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think this advancement is that much out of step with all the previous advancements,

⏹️ ▶️ John but if you had been around for the transition to scissor switches from plunger switches, probably would have felt

⏹️ ▶️ John the same way that like I can type fast on these scissor switch keyboards but I hate every

⏹️ ▶️ John minute of it but like eventually all there is a scissor switches and everyone just gets used to it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s fair maybe that’ll happen here I don’t know but it just it kind of drives me nuts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that they they took they made a massive compromise on this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco keyboard that doesn’t honestly look necessary

⏹️ ▶️ John well you’ll be you’ll be begging for these dumb switches when they go to a capacitive touchscreen for their keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah definitely all right well thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week bushel

⏹️ ▶️ Marco harvest and fracture and we will see you next week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him cuz

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ John ATP dot FM and if you’re into Twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John you can follow them at C A S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey E Y L I S S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A-R-M, Auntie Marco Armin, S-I-R,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey A-C,

⏹️ ▶️ John USA Syracuse, it’s accidental,

⏹️ ▶️ John they didn’t mean to, accidental, tech broadcast

⏹️ ▶️ John so long. So did your computer

⏹️ ▶️ John finally die or what, Casey? Yeah, what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happened?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh God. You gotta tell us what happened.

⏹️ ▶️ John We need that Death Watch website. Go check it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, when you’re a man of habit, you sometimes forget

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to change your habits. Oh no. And sometimes you repeat habits you don’t want to repeat.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it just went for another swim.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I

⏹️ ▶️ John tried to save you guys. I tried to tell you about the drink on a different level.

⏹️ ▶️ John Not just far away on the same table, but on a different physical

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey level. So here’s the thing. Oh my god,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco what happened?

⏹️ ▶️ John Preferably below, water below, computer above.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey god. I don’t have another level to put it on, John, unless I stack it on like…

⏹️ ▶️ John You got a tray table, you got upside down garbage can, maybe like, maybe like one of those, one of those camelback

⏹️ ▶️ John things with a tube so you run with the tube.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m so angry at myself right now. Yeah, podcasting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco camelbacks. Oh my god, I feel so bad laughing right now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So seriously, how long, when did Neutral start. It was January of 13, something like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that. So it’s been two and a half years that every single time I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey record either of my two podcasts, I get my, what is this like a, it’s a beer glass, basically.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s like a pint glass or something like that, full of water. I stick it where my mouse goes, because I don’t use a mouse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with that computer, and I record my show. And for two and a quarter years, I never

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had an issue. Then I put a little bit of water on her computer

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I told myself this will never happen again. You will use a water bottle that if you spill

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Nothing will come out like a sippy cup. No like Shoot, what if this is the name

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of those things? I can’t remember what it’s called I don’t have it in front of me because well, that’s the problem is I don’t have it in front of me

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I can’t think of the name of it But well if you work if you worked you would know what I’m talking about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But because you never leave the house because you never leave the house You have no fucking idea what I’m talking about. And so I do have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey house full of sippy cups Well, that’s true. So it’s like an adult sippy cup. Let’s just leave it at that. It’s it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a Camelback It’s I don’t know. I forget what the hell it’s called.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John But

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now gene bottle. Well, yeah, well no But this doesn’t have a lid it has a little like spout that flips up kind

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of like some child cups and it doesn’t matter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an adult sippy cup.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Let’s it’s an adult sippy cup. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so some Gear forgets that that’s the new routine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and apparently my new routine is to spill water on Aaron’s laptop So this time it went for a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good swim and I immediately flipped it upside down and everything was fine

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Until I jostled the power cord Then it turned off and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it doesn’t seem to want to turn back on on its own juice So I think I fried it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this was just a plain old open today was just an open cup That’s why you’re probably went back

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey down.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, and I’ve been doing well with using the water bottle, but because I’m an idiot

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I, and I’m a, seriously, I’m so programmed by routine that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just got my normal glass of water like I always do or did.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh my god, I feel so bad for you right now.

⏹️ ▶️ John You didn’t like, I thought your move would be, now that, again, you should have honed this move now, you know, flip

⏹️ ▶️ John it upside down, but would you also, have you also not been yanking out the power cord at the same time?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not last time because the podcast was my priority, so I left it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running. You gotta have a full battery while you’re podcasting and

⏹️ ▶️ John floating your computer. And so the, uh, I mean like once the water spills on it, like the move would be flip it over,

⏹️ ▶️ John yank out the cable. No?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey No, no.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Everything was left plugged in because the podcast is a priority.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t try to blame the podcast. Don’t try to say this is the podcast’s fault. No, it’s not the,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t, don’t drag follow up into this, Casey. That’s right. Oh my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey god. I’m not blaming the podcast.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’m blaming my own dumb… Well, think of it this way, Casey.

⏹️ ▶️ John If it really is dead, then we have, it has ended your suffering of wondering when it’s,

⏹️ ▶️ John some bit of corrosion on the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco inside. You know what I mean? That’s the silver lining, John. Rather than like

⏹️ ▶️ John a long drawn out period where you’re nervous about is it gonna, you know, this

⏹️ ▶️ John is just like the quick, I don’t know, it might come back, you know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Somewhere around here I have a screwdriver that’s like a double, oh there it is, it’s a double zero screwdriver that of course

⏹️ ▶️ Casey isn’t the right size for these screws because they’re so god darn microscopic that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I can’t get it open. So I was trying to pull the bottom cover but I’m afraid I’m gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strip the screws

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John doing that.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s

⏹️ ▶️ John either happened or it hasn’t. You gotta try to get the water out, dry it out, maybe it’ll start back up again. Who

⏹️ ▶️ John knows?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The problem is I have no one to be angry at but myself. I wasn’t trying to blame the podcast. I have no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one to be angry at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but myself. Don’t be so hard on yourself. No, I mean, I know you’re probably really ridiculously frustrated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right now because they that that’s like I always feel the worst when I screw something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John up and I know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s totally my fault and it’s just so like embarrassing and frustrating that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s just me I just screwed up like that’s it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s the thing it’s like it’s oh god it’s it’s my own fault

⏹️ ▶️ John you think of it this way like the thing I’ve noticed that for people with expensive Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware is a surprising number of people break them by dropping them onto hard surfaces.

⏹️ ▶️ John Including laptops, not just phones and iPads, but laptops too. The number of laptops I’ve seen with very

⏹️ ▶️ John large dents in them or shattered screens from being dropped onto hard surfaces is surprisingly high.

⏹️ ▶️ John So at least you’re avoiding that one. Water spillage, you don’t see those because it’s not as visible.

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess it either takes out the computer or it doesn’t, but I see lots of people dropping their things. And you know, this

⏹️ ▶️ John all just argues for the next materials revolution in Apple’s laptops. Like so that the

⏹️ ▶️ John long time they were like everything else where it’s like a metal frame with plastic on the outside and then there was this weird transition with the titanium

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything and eventually they settled on glass and aluminum, machined aluminum. Right?

⏹️ ▶️ John There will be another materials revolution sometime in our lifetime that will make these things

⏹️ ▶️ John more durable to drops and hopefully more water-resistant, let’s say.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what the other frustrating thing is? It’s not like my old ThinkPad which I could like, you know, puff air

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into it and kind of try to blow the thing out but this…

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think that would help because I think, I I mean, you don’t know, are you blowing little water droplets towards the part that they’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to damage or away from the part that they’re currently damaging? I don’t, I don’t, wouldn’t suggest that

⏹️ ▶️ John move.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey There’s also no light so I can’t even tell what’s happening. All the reasons I love my Macs, now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m hating every one of them. I hate everything except you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, so we’re gonna fix this problem. You’re gonna get a new computer and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re going to tell you about these awesome policies a lot of homeowners insurance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey companies that are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually damaged coverage for things like computers

⏹️ ▶️ John well hope the insurance adjuster doesn’t listen to the program when he assesses your risk

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco yeah seriously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mean

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey you can look at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know rather than being so hard on yourself for for this moment look at it instead

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as you’ve recorded like a hundred and twenty podcast or 130 of podcast episodes and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’ve only spilled water during two of them.

⏹️ ▶️ John Also, also, uh, the number of your belongings that you care about the Declan will destroy

⏹️ ▶️ John will quickly dwarf this. So don’t worry about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey plugging it back into power and trying to turn the thing on is not helping either. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait, hold on. Hold on. I see an Apple logo.

⏹️ ▶️ John You may have, you may not have an undead computer. It may actually be a zombie computer at this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey point. The sad thing is I was really going to tell you, like, beg you to cut all this out of the show but now if this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey actually comes back to life even momentarily this may be worth leaving

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in it’s worth it oh it’s back on it’s back on it’s back on let me get

⏹️ ▶️ John but but when you type your fingers get wet but it’s I mean first of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all you should probably turn it off but the problem is like the battery is always connected on me it’s like you have to disassemble it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to take it to disconnect the battery so it’s kind of always powered to some degree

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I turned it back off, but there’s hope. Oh, God.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, with the last spill, when we got everyone’s weird recommendations-

⏹️ ▶️ Casey The fact that you just had to say last spill is so bad. I know. I’m not mad at you, I’m just saying

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s so bad that we have to now specify which friggin’ spill it is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know, but anyway, for the last spill, did you learn any techniques or tricks that you can use

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now, or that you did already

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey use?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Clearly not, Marco, I just spilled again. I know

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco what you’re saying, I know what you’re saying.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I heard all the wives’ tales and husbands’ tales about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how to get stuff out, and so on and so forth.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And really, the reality of the situation was I was just very lucky. I know this probably sounds like crap because I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey keep trying to look at this thing and try to salvage it, so I apologize. Not

⏹️ ▶️ Casey practicing good microphone technique, but anyway. It’s totally worth it, though. So yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so…

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco We got to keep this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in. I know we do. And I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco cuz

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re gonna be talking about it in the future probably so you we got to leave it it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Did you know you can play this like a friggin harmonica?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey a terrible song It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey also a keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not not a bad keyboard, but still a key I I think I would rather

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use that keyboard wet than the MacBook one

⏹️ ▶️ Casey At least I mean the only thing I’ve got well I two things going for me one I’m not drinking which is probably

⏹️ ▶️ Casey good because then it’s just doubling down on the ineptitude wait were you drinking last time?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no actually I wasn’t maybe this is the problem Maybe that is the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey issue, but no I’m not drinking which means it’s it’s only a single

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a single level of ineptitude However repeated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the funny thing is if you were drinking like a highly distilled very alcoholic spirit and by a few plus damage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it actually might be better. It would evaporate a lot faster, and there would be less stuff

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it That is a good point actually the vodka would have just evaporated instantly No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I though that’s what I was gonna say it wasn’t like a sprite or anything like that so at least it won’t

⏹️ ▶️ Casey be sticky Man first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco such an idiot you guys so either way so you know if you If this doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make it then you know John wins then you know then you you will at least like it’ll at least be over

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If it does make it it’ll be really impressive. You know like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Either way the show wins unfortunately either way. I think you lose and Aaron loses

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we just got an email recommending the the depot repair that Marco Just did done his thing that apparently

⏹️ ▶️ John it covers water damage as well So if you just want to throw it to the mercies of the depot repair and pay them 300 bucks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, that’s the thing, though. That’s what we talked about a few episodes ago, is that I’ve heard the Depot Repair is free

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you are nice to the genius. I’ve heard it’s $300. I’ve heard it’s $800. I’ve heard,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think, once or twice it was over a thousand. I kid you not, I have probably heard 10 to 20

⏹️ ▶️ Casey responses as to how much a Depot Repair is. And of those 10 to 20 responses,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would say I’ve heard five or six different answers.

⏹️ ▶️ John But don’t you find out the price before you send it, though? Or no?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well yes for the deep, not for all repairs, for the Depot repair yes because it’s a flat rate repair. The Depot repair is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco literally like you give them X dollars, whatever it is for that model, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they replace anything in there that fails testing. So the problem you’d have first of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all is what if they get it and they run the test and they all pass?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh god that would be kind of funny. It would be terrible but it would be kind of funny.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco From what I’ve heard, there is a separate type of repair for water damage where they basically replace the entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco logic board and everything inside. That is a lot more expensive. That’s the one that I think somebody told me was $900

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that model that you have. So that’s the one that’s really not worth doing in most cases.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what? Maybe what I probably should do, if I’m really honest, is I should just spend the $1,000,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey $1,100, whatever it was, and get Erin her own freaking MacBook Air and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey leave this if it still works as the, oh my god, when is it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to die, you did this to yourself podcasting computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it’s kind of the worst podcasting computer. The last thing you want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a podcasting computer is something unreliable. Something that is very unreliable potentially and also that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really easy to spill stuff into. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey god, I am so angry at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco myself right now. Well, hey, you know what, if you get the MacBook One, it wouldn’t have a fan,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that would solve the problem of your other computer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s true. But I mean, honestly, the funny thing is, I actually am due for a new computer, both at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey work and at home. I mean, leaving aside the MacBook Air, I should take actually, well, my room

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is, my office is such a mess, but I was going to say I should take a picture of the puddle of water that’s adjacent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to where the computer sits that was other debris from this spillage,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it’s a significant puddle.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And maybe you could sign the computer and auction it off. Yeah, seriously. That’s fan art from the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right, oh.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco An artifact.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m such an idiot, like, I’m mad it happened, but just like you said, Marco, I’m more than anything, I’m mad

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that I didn’t learn from my last mistake. God, I’m such

⏹️ ▶️ Marco an idiot, like. You’re fine, be easy on yourself. Look, I mean, you’re gonna screw

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things up in life sometimes, that’s reality, that’s a human being. I mean, look. Yeah, but learn from it. You have a kid now,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have no idea how many screw-ups are ahead of you.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you wanna see spilled drinks at the table, you know, like, just start counting them up Until you just I mean

⏹️ ▶️ John my kids are still spilling drinks double-digit ages on Well, I’m 33. I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey spilling drinks You

⏹️ ▶️ John know no use crying over spilled my recall spilled water it happens. You know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco life this stuff happens Maybe maybe it’s some kind of sign from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of spirit that just really hates MacBook airs Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John or just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey really hates that one. I don’t know

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you have a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey cursed MacBook air now after doing this twice It removes all doubt that in at least this

⏹️ ▶️ Casey way I am the idiot of the three of us and that’s also deeply frustrating Oh, come on. No, it

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t perhaps the least coordinated. I’m not gonna say it has anything to do with intelligence. Maybe

⏹️ ▶️ John control of your limbs But I don’t think you can directly correlate that to intelligence

⏹️ ▶️ John Otherwise, they would make like, you know, the world’s greatest athletes the world’s smartest people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just bought a whole computer wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the thing you do though.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that is just the thing you do.