Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

72: Take Your Co-Host To Work Day

Follow-up from doctors and Android enthusiasts, Aperture and iPhoto parking their sunsets into Photos for Mac, and designing for aesthetics over usefulness.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll stall by saying the showbot is back. For how long? Yeah, probably not much

⏹️ ▶️ Casey longer. There have been a few poll requests from a couple of different people who,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as usual, I don’t have their names in front of me because I’m a jerk. But we

⏹️ ▶️ Casey can all laugh together when this goes down momentarily.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, we’re laughing with you, not at you. I think it’s both,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t blame you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Laughing at your showbot with you.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s no known vulnerabilities left,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey right? Known, no. But I’m sure that they exist nevertheless. So you

⏹️ ▶️ John reach Zara Boogs. You know Zara Boogs? Nope. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey all right.

⏹️ ▶️ John We can count that as the pop culture reference for the show if you’d like. Because it’s kind of pop culture, kind of programmery. I’ll put

⏹️ ▶️ John it in the show notes, and then you guys will know what it means. Probably still won’t.

⏹️ ▶️ John Follow up. Last week, I think it was last week, we talked about Google’s Material

⏹️ ▶️ John UI They demoed at the Google I O keynote. And I mentioned that one of the things they showed

⏹️ ▶️ John in the keynote that I thought was neat was that they want this UI to be the same

⏹️ ▶️ John on the web and on their phones. And so they had a web version of it. And this

⏹️ ▶️ John is a website. I don’t even know if it’s an official Google website, but it’s a website. And you can go to it and view

⏹️ ▶️ John the web version of a lot of the controls that Google showed in their presentation. Did you

⏹️ ▶️ John guys check the site out? Preferably in Chrome,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I suppose. I have it in Chrome right now, but I have not looked previously.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now click around in it and see what you think. I mean, it looks like the stuff you saw up on the screen

⏹️ ▶️ John immediately on this was another thing spawned from Twitter today because Don Lodzki sent me this on Twitter and

⏹️ ▶️ John then I retweeted it and a bunch of other people responded. And of course, all the people who follow me true to form jumped

⏹️ ▶️ John on the fact that you can’t click on the labels to activate the checkboxes, which is

⏹️ ▶️ John quite egregious, but in the web world, it could just be that it didn’t do the label, you know, for equals

⏹️ ▶️ John ID of the checkbox thing. Or these could be entirely custom controls. I haven’t even looked at the source to see if there’s actually

⏹️ ▶️ John any HTML. So anyway, I don’t blame them for that. Mostly what I’m looking at is,

⏹️ ▶️ John does this UI feel, you know, for lack of a better word, snappy? And I think

⏹️ ▶️ John it does. I think the animations are smooth. Yeah, but they take too long. Well, yeah, but that’s not a performance

⏹️ ▶️ John issue. That’s like a decision. That’s kind of like an iOS 7 where I have the transition things turned

⏹️ ▶️ John off, even though they don’t take any shorter. I have that for the zooming effect or whatever. But anyway, that’s like they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John deciding how long these things go. It’s not like they’re taking too long because they’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco slow.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and remember, iOS 7.0, things did take too long. In 7.1, they fixed it. They, well, they improved it. They

⏹️ ▶️ Marco tightened everything up, and they said we made everything faster, which they did by tweaking two values. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple didn’t really get this perfect either on step one. And there’s still a few areas where

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s unnecessarily long animations in OS X and in iOS.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s like, like I mentioned, turning off the reduced motion or whatever where it doesn’t reportedly

⏹️ ▶️ John does not change the duration at all but it feels faster because it’s a crossfade instead of a zoom

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever there’s lots of things you can do perception wise to handle that but this interface also shows off

⏹️ ▶️ John the big honkin like ripple effect thing so you can tell where

⏹️ ▶️ John you clicked or the buttons having a ripple go across them I’m still not a fan having

⏹️ ▶️ John clicked around in it but I am reasonably impressed with the performance I wouldn’t complain

⏹️ ▶️ John if I was clicking around on this like it doesn’t look like a native control doesn’t feel like a native control but it doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John feel slow or clunky either so it reduces all my complaints not to technological ones but to design

⏹️ ▶️ John complaints which I think is a reasonable achievement like if what they’re looking for is this should be exactly the same

⏹️ ▶️ John on the web and native I haven’t tried the native one but I can’t imagine it being

⏹️ ▶️ John any more or less responsive than this so then you’re just switch over to complaining about the actual

⏹️ ▶️ John design decisions but it looks to me like they’ve achieved reasonable parity of performance between the platforms.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know I don’t like if you look at the buttons and I’m looking at the raised button

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the colored raised button where the kind of ripple effect is most obvious or at least as far

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I can tell I don’t like that it doesn’t look like you’re depressing the button like if you’re gonna have a raised button

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it should it should get pressed when you tap it or click it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right if anything because the shadow gets larger as you tap it so it looks like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco button is being raised up off of the page for a moment but the but it’s not moving

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it just kind of looks spatially wrong

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah the Z index thing is weird like if I understand what Casey saying about the depressed thing but wouldn’t that be like

⏹️ ▶️ John wouldn’t that change the Z value and then like momentarily it would be putting I don’t I don’t know I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to figure out their friggin metaphor but yeah it is this is what they’ve chosen to do it like you’re not pressing

⏹️ ▶️ John the button down you’re merely activating the button and so a shimmer goes across the button but the button

⏹️ ▶️ John does not move it’s It’s kind of like those touch sensitive buttons. You guys probably don’t remember this, but way

⏹️ ▶️ John back when on televisions, my grandfather had one of these. They had buttons on them that did not move in and out when you pressed them.

⏹️ ▶️ John They were like touch sensitive buttons. It was like a metal ring with a metal contact in the middle and you just touch them with your finger and it would

⏹️ ▶️ John activate to change the channel, but they would not actually push down and these were both on the television and on the remote

⏹️ ▶️ John and it was amazing technology in whatever year it was, 1986, but did not

⏹️ ▶️ John catch on for obvious reasons because people want buttons that press down, like the home button on your iOS device.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think we’re just like this is the kind of thing it’s it’s hard to tell in a demo here, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this in this artificially created demo on a web page, which is not the intended use of this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I know it’s it’s a way you can use these things. But it’s obviously this is made for touch devices first.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And, you know, this is the kind of thing where we’re, you know, we’re just not going to be able to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really know how good it is, because none of us use Android full-time. But we got a few people complaining about the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco way that we talked about Google last week. And I think it’s worth pointing out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and kind of telling ourselves as well. Like look, the world of tech is really big and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no individual person or even small groups like this, it’s hard to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get like good, you know, adequate coverage of everything in detail. We like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to talk about things in great detail. We are all extremely focused well for the most part but we are extreme

⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerds at least and so we we will go into depth on on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco crazy topics to crazy levels of detail and that has to necessarily be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at the exclusion of others you know like it’s like like nobody can be an expert in all programming because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco programming is massive maybe in the 70s you might have been able to become an expert in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know almost everything that was out there now the that that that industry is simply

⏹️ ▶️ Marco too large. You can’t be an expert in all programming because there’s just there’s more

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there than you have time to even look at or learn. You know you have to at some point

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know reject certain things implicitly just because you’re choosing to focus your attention

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on something in particular. I don’t think we should feel like we’re barred from talking about things that we aren’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco experts in. Anything that sounded like we were doing that last week was was our mistake. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think I was doing a pretty reasonable job of disclaimers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and being humble and giving the benefit of the doubt, but that’s been a very unpopular opinion of me

⏹️ ▶️ Marco recently. Apparently I’m not doing that very well in almost everything I do.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I don’t know if it’s my problem or everyone else’s problem. It’s probably some of both, honestly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But we can’t be expected to be experts on everything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and we don’t need to give everything equal time. And I think that’s very important for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of us, you know, both us and the audience to understand and to be on the same page and to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the same parking lot about. We, am I using that right? No,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey that’s okay. We

⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to drive into the parking garage level two. Oh my god. And maybe, and you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, get one of those little tickets that you pay on the way out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, we need to have take your co-host to work day,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco if you and me, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just see how long you’ll last.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco How long until your co-host gets fired from the job you didn’t even have?

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s simpler than Marco. I think you’re looking too deeply within yourself

⏹️ ▶️ John to figure this one out. I think it probably comes down to talking negatively about something

⏹️ ▶️ John that is clear that you don’t know a lot about. And that’s the easy attack for people who are sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of on that team is that I Don’t like you saying bad things about the thing that I like and by the way You’d

⏹️ ▶️ John also don’t know as much as I do about the thing that I like Therefore you’re stupid for saying that you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John like the thing that I like which may be true Maybe if you knew it better you would like it better but

⏹️ ▶️ John just as easily it could be that you know enough about it to know that you don’t like it and That’s just an easy

⏹️ ▶️ John Avenue of an attack. So when you dismiss Android or I call Android phones crappy

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever However, if you’re on the Android team and you care whether other people like Android, which is some

⏹️ ▶️ John other thing in and of itself, then you’re going to say, well, if you just knew it better, that’s the nice way to say it. And the

⏹️ ▶️ John unkind way to say it is you guys know nothing about Android. You should not talk about Android because if you, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, you say bad things about it, but it’s clear that you guys don’t even have Android phones. So stop talking

⏹️ ▶️ John about it. But that stuff doesn’t bother me because the people who are on teams like the partisans, the people who care

⏹️ ▶️ John whether other people like Android stuff or Apple stuff or anything like There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a million of those. You’re not going to change those people. What you do want to be is fair to the stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ John and not because anyone’s on any particular team. But you don’t want to misrepresent anything. And I think the criticism that

⏹️ ▶️ John we got that I think was not fair, but it was coming from a good place,

⏹️ ▶️ John was that we didn’t, for instance, mention that Android has more market share than Apple.

⏹️ ▶️ John And we didn’t mention that because we assume everybody always knows that. Not because we don’t know it, and

⏹️ ▶️ John not because we’re trying to deny it. But I can understand if you’re coming at it not having that background and sort of, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John if you don’t share those assumptions with us, then you could say they’re misrepresenting Android, making it seem like

⏹️ ▶️ John it is the inferior, lower selling phone platform. When in reality, Which we

⏹️ ▶️ John never said. I know, exactly. But it’s like, we all know what we know. And a lot of our regular listeners know what

⏹️ ▶️ John we know. But if you’re a new listener, you may be thinking these guys are making it seem like Android is the loser, when

⏹️ ▶️ John really, Android has the biggest market share. I try not to get too bogged down in those things. Anyway, most people were just yelling

⏹️ ▶️ John at Marco. I just got into the X email at that point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think I think it’s a topic worth addressing because it’s going to keep coming up here and there where you know somebody gets

⏹️ ▶️ Marco upset that we didn’t cover X, Y, or Z or that we didn’t consider their team when discussing topic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco X because we covered somebody else’s team and they perceive that as a slight to them.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s worth a disclaimer that when we talk about Android, none of us use it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I don’t think that removes our our ability to talk about it intelligently.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s something we have to consider when we’re talking about it intelligently, but I think we usually have. We shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be afraid to talk about it or, you know, banned by our audience from talking about it, as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco long as we keep that in mind, as long as we keep in mind, you know, none of us use it, so we can’t really say in great detail about these things,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it is a major force in our market and it would be, it would almost

⏹️ ▶️ Marco be stupid and negligent of us not to ever talk about it.

⏹️ ▶️ John So this discussion has given me time to right click on that little demo page and I do not see an input HTML element

⏹️ ▶️ John anywhere in sight on that checkbox.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It’s all

⏹️ ▶️ John div, canvas, style, so which is fine. Like I was just wondering if they

⏹️ ▶️ John had tried to use the actual HTML elements and then enhance them. Maybe they have because I did inspect the element. I

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t know what was in the source code before the JavaScript got a hold of the DOM, but when the JavaScript was done with it, all I’m left

⏹️ ▶️ John with is a div soup and some canvas elements and some inline styles. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s some crazy stuff. I like the slider. I like the 3D when you grab the little, what do you call

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that? Not a nubbin but um the thinger handle whatever thumb thumb that’s what i was looking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for thank you anyway uh when you grab the thumb i think it’s a little too much zoom i think it comes at you a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey little bit too much but i like

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not coming at you it’s getting bigger if it came at you the shadow would increase go to the z index thing at the bottom

⏹️ ▶️ John like shadow thing it shows distance you know the z index so that’s the thumb is actually getting bigger

⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay well either way um and i also like that it becomes colorless at the left edge

⏹️ ▶️ Casey although i do think if you’re going going to do that game. It should be more of a gradient as you come across

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the slider. But no, there are definitely some good ideas here. It feels a little unnatural

⏹️ ▶️ Casey because it looks different than a lot of things. I think mostly like this layout where you’ve got that page

⏹️ ▶️ Casey card thing that kind of goes over the header that feels weird

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and different and uncomfortable. But I think it’s just because it’s different, not because it’s bad.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, it’s in a web page. Like, imagine it on a phone. Imagine that you were using this on a phone One app

⏹️ ▶️ John was a web app, because the whole thing with Google’s with their new OS is they’re trying to, you know, tabs

⏹️ ▶️ John are mixed in with apps in your task switcher and everything in a way that’s supposed to blur the line between what is a mobile website

⏹️ ▶️ John and what is an app. And so if you were using a Google app that used this UI that happened to be a web app

⏹️ ▶️ John and using a Google app that happened to be native, they want them to look and feel the same. And I mean, if the whole

⏹️ ▶️ John rest of the OS looks like this, you’ll get used to it. And then if you happen to use a little mobile web app like this,

⏹️ ▶️ John it won’t be as shocking as it is for us to load this up on our Macs in a little demo thing

⏹️ ▶️ John inside a Chrome window.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, or it’ll be like an uncanny valley problem where it’ll get, it’s like when all those sites, I mean obviously

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’re way more advanced on this these days, but when all those blog templates and everything started making,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the iPhone first came out, started making mobile layouts that looked like an iPhone navigation controller.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it would have the big gradient bar, which of course eggs really well. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John but they did not perform like it. As soon as you like they had to do the simulated javascript scrolling way back when because

⏹️ ▶️ John they couldn’t even do the real you know GPU accelerated scrolling, but yeah, even when they did like a navigation where you’d hit

⏹️ ▶️ John an element It would try to do a slide. It was all stuttery like that was not fooling anybody I would like to see actually in

⏹️ ▶️ John a blind test between you tell me is this a web page or is this a native app? I guess you’d start with something

⏹️ ▶️ John simple is just like this like a control gallery So someone makes a native app and on Google’s new operating

⏹️ ▶️ John system with these controls and then someone makes the web equivalent It doesn’t tell you which is which, and you have to fiddle around with them and

⏹️ ▶️ John guess, like two devices, which one is the web one. Which is, that would be interesting. That’s the true test, I suppose.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s the Pepsi challenge.

⏹️ ▶️ John ABX testing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You have to take it serious. Anything else on this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I share everyone else’s opinion, for the most part, that it looks, on first glance, to have way too much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco animation. But again, we’ll have to see how that plays out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Do we want to go through this biomedical follow-up stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think we should before Apple comes out with an iWatch and then becomes less relevant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plus, we just got to clear

⏹️ ▶️ John all the space out of our document. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so we got feedback a while back when we were talking about

⏹️ ▶️ John wearables probably before WWDC. The first bit is from a biomedical engineer

⏹️ ▶️ John named Bed Griffel. And the second bit is from a doctor named, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John God, I’m not even going to do this one. One of you sacrifice yourself. Not it. He actually put it in his email, try

⏹️ ▶️ John and pronounce that. So he’s just like taunting us. And we do not live up to his challenge.

⏹️ ▶️ John His first name is P-E-R. I’m going to go with per. And his last name has a capital

⏹️ ▶️ John O with two dots on top of it. And then it just goes on from there. I’m going to say per-oste-gren. I think that sounds

⏹️ ▶️ John reasonable. That’s accurate enough. It’s probably not that far off. So the biomedical engineer was responding

⏹️ ▶️ John to our questions several shows ago about like, what do you need to get vitals

⏹️ ▶️ John from people? What kind of hardware do you need? And he says,

⏹️ ▶️ John getting a good heart rate requires at least two sensor attachments to the body. And I actually saw someone running with one of those.

⏹️ ▶️ John You ever see one of those bands that goes around your chest? Yeah, yeah. Like for getting your heart rate? I assume that’s a similar thing where it has

⏹️ ▶️ John two sensors. Otherwise, why would a wrap around your whole body? So

⏹️ ▶️ John having just the wrist thing might not be great for that. And

⏹️ ▶️ John oxygen saturation, he says, is feasible with current tech. But like

⏹️ ▶️ John the other person whose name I’m not going to pronounce again, his main issue is what do you

⏹️ ▶️ John do with this information, assuming you even can collect it. And the doctor’s opinion

⏹️ ▶️ John is that when dealing with any of this data, you’re faced with a couple problems. One is that most people’s vitals

⏹️ ▶️ John are stay within a reasonable range, assuming they’re healthy. So it’s not that interesting data. If you were to chart

⏹️ ▶️ John it, it’s not like you’re going to see big fluctuations, because if you do, you should probably be in the hospital because it’s not, you know, certain

⏹️ ▶️ John things like blood oxygenation should not be radically out of bounds. He says that

⏹️ ▶️ John your pulse at oxygen level and blood pressure should only vary within a few percent. So those are boring graphs, although I assume

⏹️ ▶️ John you could zoom in on the axes and exaggerate the differences. But he says, when dealing with data points in my work,

⏹️ ▶️ John context is everything. Is that pulse rate normal or not? Depends on the context. Same goes for fever, blood pressure,

⏹️ ▶️ John et cetera. Taken out of context, there is nothing to analyze. And the whole idea is that the

⏹️ ▶️ John most important thing that doctors do is get a context for these readings. And the numbers in isolation without a

⏹️ ▶️ John trained doctor to look at them are meaningless, certainly meaningless to an untrained person just looking at these

⏹️ ▶️ John numbers and trying to know what this information is.

⏹️ ▶️ John So I mostly agree with all of this. And a lot of people in the medical field are nervous

⏹️ ▶️ John about this stuff ever being used for anything remotely approaching medical purposes. I’m sure these things will have

⏹️ ▶️ John to come with disclaimers. Like, this is not for you to self-diagnose. This is

⏹️ ▶️ John not telling you whether you’re sick or healthy. This is not telling you whether you should or shouldn’t go to the doctor or the hospital.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I don’t know, for entertainment purposes only? Like Fitbit, you know, like Fitbit is safe

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s, you know, steps and not even really steps, just how many times the Fitbit has wiggled in a step-like manner.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s kind of like gamified. But once you start getting into things and start looking like things that you might

⏹️ ▶️ John measure in a hospital, I guess Apple or any other company that does this stuff has to be careful in saying this

⏹️ ▶️ John information is not diagnosing you with anything, it is not a doctor, consult your doctor before

⏹️ ▶️ John blah blah blah blah blah. I think all that is true. I also think

⏹️ ▶️ John there is a reasonable entertainment only gamified version of this that could come into being and

⏹️ ▶️ John long term for people who do have chronic illnesses and stuff you would imagine like there we show this in the demos from

⏹️ ▶️ John the 80s and 90s and I’m sure they’re doing it today with a million devices that people email us about but like if you have

⏹️ ▶️ John a chronic condition that requires monitoring having technology to have a device that does monitor

⏹️ ▶️ John this information and relays it to your actual doctor so that you can have sort of, not 24-7 care,

⏹️ ▶️ John but redundant monitoring by health professionals of your actual vitals

⏹️ ▶️ John as part of some condition. You can imagine if there was a way to constantly get your

⏹️ ▶️ John blood sugar level for people with diabetes without pricking your finger. You just put on this wrist strap, and then

⏹️ ▶️ John your doctor would automatically have, or an entire medical staff somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ John would automatically have your blood sugar and could notify you when you’re overdoing it, and remind you

⏹️ ▶️ John to take your insulin shot before you go off to bed or whatever. That’s like the future world technology

⏹️ ▶️ John they always show with for remote medicine. And I suppose the silly entertainment stuff like Fitbit is like

⏹️ ▶️ John a little miniature step along the way to that. I don’t know, but anyway, it was mostly a

⏹️ ▶️ John pessimistic view of this stuff that from the medical professionals,

⏹️ ▶️ John they think it’s not as useful as the fantasy scenarios make it out to be, and I’m inclined to agree

⏹️ ▶️ John with them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, maybe this would provide context to a doctor. I think you’re right

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in that it could never be used for serious medicine, but you know, maybe

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you could say, maybe this app or the health kit or whatever could say, well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey your heart rate generally falls between this and that, and right now it’s at two beats per minute,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so you might be dead. You know, and so maybe it’ll provide that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey context that you wouldn’t have otherwise had because you don’t normally walk around with a heart rate monitor

⏹️ ▶️ Casey strapped to your body.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, yeah, this last bit that I wanted to get to, anyone who has spent any time in a hospital recently or ever

⏹️ ▶️ John recognizes that talking about the existing automated devices in hospitals for

⏹️ ▶️ John tracking vitals and how many of them have warnings or alarms that go off

⏹️ ▶️ John and how often those warnings or alarms mean anything. On TV shows, they always mean something, where the little buzzy beepy thing goes off, the

⏹️ ▶️ John doctors run around and it’s something serious and the dramatic music starts playing. In actual hospitals, the stupid, buzzy

⏹️ ▶️ John warning things go off all the time. And the staff there knows whether it’s serious or not. And there’s tons

⏹️ ▶️ John of false positives. And the thing that differentiates a false positive from time for doctors to run around with their heads on

⏹️ ▶️ John fire is the trained medical professionals who know what can be disregarded and what can and

⏹️ ▶️ John what’s in equipment and malfunction, what’s a sensor that just slipped off, and what’s a serious situation. And

⏹️ ▶️ John like I said, I don’t spend a lot of time in hospitals, but I’ve spent enough time to know that BP things going

⏹️ ▶️ John off in the beginning start freaking you out until you realize that BP things go off all the time and only some

⏹️ ▶️ John small percentage of the time does it mean anything. And when it does mean something, hopefully, you know, the doctors

⏹️ ▶️ John and nurses are on it, but the rest of the time, the doctors and nurses are resetting the thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John turning the thing off, recalibrating the thing, reattaching something. And that just goes to show how much of

⏹️ ▶️ John humans are a factor in this stuff and how little automated devices, even hospital grade automated devices

⏹️ ▶️ John can do on their own.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by our returning friends, Igloo, the intranet that you will actually like.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now I know Casey, you work in the world of intranets frequently, is that correct?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Is there a market for somebody coming along to make an intranet that’s good because, you know, it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of implies that other intranets are terrible. Would you generally say that’s the case?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Would you say there’s a market for an iPod, a phone, and an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey internet communicator all in one?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I mean a PC guy is not just going to come in here and take the market. They’re not going to just walk in. Right,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey naturally. But if you were Igloo, you could just walk in and take the market.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Turns out most internets are terrible and Igloo is awesome. And that’s actually a really good business

⏹️ ▶️ Marco model. Go find something terrible and make an awesome version. By the way, Igloo has a super exciting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release coming this summer called Unicorn. We’ve talked about this before, a couple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco months ago, or a month ago, we told you about Unicorn a little bit. Just to recap, Unicorn

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has a ton of new features, but the best is integrated task management that will change how you stay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on track with work. Igloo tasks can be assigned in different ways depending on the work you’re doing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the coolest ways to use tasks is creating them directly on your content. Why do you need this?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for instance, when requesting updates on a graphic or a text correction on a Word document,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can create these tasks right on your content. So you and your team stay up to date with what has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be done next. When you’re viewing content, even if it’s a blog, event, or forum topic

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inside your Igloo, because Igloo can do all those cool things, these tasks are right there informing everyone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if all tasks have been completed or if it needs additional work. You can assign these tasks to yourself or a teammate,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco comment on the tasks, and keep all of your changes in one place. And when you’re the one who’s been assigned

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a task, all your tasks show up in a unified dashboard within your Igloo, with due dates clearly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco marked, making it super simple to manage your day-to-day work and clarify your priorities. Man, I wanna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco throw a parking lot joke in here. Unicorn is a free update for all Igloo customers coming

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this summer, so learn more at slash ATP.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Once again, that’s slash ATP. Thank you very much to Igloo for sponsoring

⏹️ ▶️ Marco our show once again. Good people over there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, they’re very good people over there up there, I guess I should say.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah, yeah. They’re up. They’re up in the great white north, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. Aperture and iPhoto are dead and being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey replaced by cloud photos. Any thoughts on this from somebody who actually pays attention to photography,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey which I am not that person?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco What do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey guys use? Let’s start with that. I used in the past I photo

⏹️ ▶️ Casey occasionally, But I felt like even for my photo collection pre-children,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey although it goes back to like 2002 or something like that, um, it was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey really slow, like really, really slow. And so I tried to buy into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey using that as my photo management application. And then it took me all of

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a couple of weeks to revert back to using the file system.

⏹️ ▶️ John That system is not going to scale once your child gets here. Let me just tell you, uh, using the file

⏹️ ▶️ John system. I’ve used iPhoto and Aperture and I think I had a demo of Lightroom installed

⏹️ ▶️ John for a while And I always kept going back to iPhoto despite the fact that it has gotten worse and worse over the years and drives

⏹️ ▶️ John me insane for two reasons one I Invested a lot. I have invested

⏹️ ▶️ John a lot of time in Adding metadata to my photos in iPhoto

⏹️ ▶️ John And yeah, I know Aperture shares library and all that other good stuff but to the the features that

⏹️ ▶️ John I use most frequently either either aren’t in aperture now or weren’t in aperture

⏹️ ▶️ John years ago when I continued on this path. Like face recognition came first to iPhoto. Is that even in aperture yet?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe they brought over all that stuff in like a point one update. Like the photo

⏹️ ▶️ John books, the slideshows, all the silly consumer grade things they put in iPhoto, we use them not

⏹️ ▶️ John frequently, but every once in a while it’s nice to have them there. And again, with the library sharing, it’s probably not that big of a deal.

⏹️ ▶️ John But basically, I’ve just sunk so many hours and so much time into iPhoto.

⏹️ ▶️ John All my photos are in iPhoto, they’re organized in there, they’re rated, mostly keyworded,

⏹️ ▶️ John all sorts of other stuff. And I just don’t do any adjustments of them. I have no idea what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John doing in Aperture or Lightroom. My photos aren’t that good quality anyway because I don’t really have a real camera.

⏹️ ▶️ John So yeah, I’ve been to iPhoto forever and that’s where all my pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are. So I’ve actually used all of these things before and spend it like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it beyond just like using it for like a day or two. I started out with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all iPhoto. Then I tried Aputure for I was all iPhoto through my first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco SLR phase for three or four years. Then I switched

⏹️ ▶️ Marco over to Lightroom. I mean, for to Aputure first for about a year and a half or two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years, then Lightroom, then back to Aputure, then back to Lightroom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And each one with a six month interval there at the end. And now I’ve been at Lightroom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for a couple years. And they’ve all driven me crazy in different ways. None of them are great

⏹️ ▶️ Marco solutions. And the iOS situation is not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco great either. The iOS situation pre-8 with the Photos app on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS being just kind of this browser that could do very little, the camera app being kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco half integrated into it, and then The separate iPhoto app, which I don’t know anybody

⏹️ ▶️ Marco who uses iPhoto and iOS, I tried it briefly and it was so clunky and terrible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me that I couldn’t stand it. But on the desktop, these programs have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all had issues. They’ve all driven me nuts. iPhoto was by far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the least aggravating for the longest time. In that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you want to do pretty passive management of your photos, like, you know know what I don’t I don’t want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to create albums and sets and tags and keywords I just want to import everything and be able to browse

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it quickly that’s it I I know this is not maybe as common as as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other people think I don’t know I’ve never used metadata features at all

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tagged all the faces and iPhoto when that came out and then I never looked at them at them again so that was a waste of time and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPhoto has always been the simplest because it didn’t require much organization

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you could browse quickly and performance was critical. Aperture has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco always had by far the worst performance of any of these things. Even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a Mac Pro, even with an SSD, Aperture performance has always been much slower

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me than Lightroom or iPhoto. And even in a fairly recent update, I think like two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years ago, which for Aperture is recent because no one ever works on it, but in a fairly recent update to Aperture,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they They even did the thing where you could merge the library where Aperture and iPhoto could share the same library, which is an interesting move.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even that didn’t make Aperture fast. It’s always been very, very slow, just browsing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through collections and stuff, and it’s also been very buggy. And I tried a lot of different versions of Aperture, because whenever a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new one would come out, all the Aperture fans would say, oh, they finally made it better, so I’d go back and try again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it was never really that much better. It’s like desktop Linux. Everyone always says, it’s better now, go try it again.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it never really is, or at least not meaningfully enough to people who don’t use it every day

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to really see that, oh, no, this is still annoying the crap out of me and having these weird bugs and weird performance

⏹️ ▶️ Marco issues. Lightroom has by far

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the best performance and the best stability compared to the other apps. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Lightroom’s interface is clunky. And, although, honestly, I found Aperture’s interface clunky as well. iPhoto.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I totally agree with John that while I was still trying it, and I still go back to it occasionally,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it does seem like every release is worse than the last one. There’s something about the things they do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to try to make it easier usually end up making it clunkier, which you wouldn’t expect, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s been the case. So I’ve tried all these apps. None of them are great, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only the Apple apps have the integration with the iOS devices. So if you’re an iOS device user

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you want nice sync between all these things. Only Aperture and iPhoto have that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Lightroom has, they recently launched their own sync platform. Adobe’s had a weird history with this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco First they launched Adobe Revel about two years ago, I think. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a good idea. In fact, a lot of the stuff that the new Photos Cloud thing is doing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Revel did it two years ago. But it was a weird combo with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weird limitations that was never very well marketed. It was very clear that it was not a top

⏹️ ▶️ Marco priority for Adobe. So then Lightroom Cloud was…

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are they calling it Lightroom Cloud? Lightroom Mobile? Whatever they’re… Lightroom released a sync product like two months ago or something like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that and you could you had to manually drag over things that were synced. It would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not sync your whole library. It wouldn’t even let you sync a smart album so you couldn’t like do a trick where you say,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alright we’ll just sync everything from the last six years, you know? Couldn’t even do that. You have to like manually select what got synced which

⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of ruins the way I wanted to use it. And what I want is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco what Apple is giving us. Now I am sad that Aputure is going away in the sense that there’s gonna be less

⏹️ ▶️ Marco competition for Lightroom but there wasn’t that much to begin with because Aputure was so badly maintained

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by Apple. It hardly ever got new releases. It rarely got new features.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Does it even… I know this is probably… some people consider this minor but does it even have lens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco profiles yet for cameras? Like Lightroom added that a couple years ago and it’s… oh it’s such an incredibly good feature

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because you don’t realize how distorted your camera is until you click on that checkbox that applies the lens profile light room

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you see whoop oh um all right people in the chat say no didn’t get uh lens

⏹️ ▶️ Marco profiles

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t you feel like it’s kind of a shame that like not that aperture defined the category but that aperture aperture essentially

⏹️ ▶️ John uh popularized a a category of application that previously was

⏹️ ▶️ John only used by professional photographers it sort of made it prosumer because it’s like when we were talking about aperture on twitter

⏹️ ▶️ John and everything and everyone was chiming in with the names of these applications that i’ve never heard of probably because they’re used by pro photographers

⏹️ ▶️ John and Aperture was like prosumer. Oh, here’s an application like the ones the pros use

⏹️ ▶️ John probably nicer because it’s made by Apple and doesn’t have any weird, you know, it’s not made by some weird company that

⏹️ ▶️ John sells a small number of companies. This is Apple. It’s going to be friendly. It’s going to be prosumer, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it fulfills the same role and then Lightroom said that’s a great and all Apple, but here’s how you actually

⏹️ ▶️ John do that app and not make it suck.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right? And an Aperture was just relentless in its updates and like new cameras would come out with crazy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco new raw formats. Lightroom, you mean? Yeah, yeah, obviously. Like new cameras would come out

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with crazy new raw formats and Lightroom would beat Aputure to supporting almost every single one. And often

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by like weeks or months, it was often a pretty big, pretty big difference. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just, you know, the processing engine like. I always liked it, and I was torn.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco One of the reasons I kept switching back and forth, I always liked the results I got from Aputure,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from editing in Aputure. I edited some of my favorite pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in it, but Lightroom’s editing controls are better. I was really

⏹️ ▶️ Marco very, very impressed with the output of Aperture, but I hated every part of getting there. Whereas with Lightroom,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s now, like, the tools are much more advanced, and they’ve slowly made it a little bit more artsy,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco rather than, like, you know, analytical and everything, and so they’re improving on that front. But the biggest

⏹️ ▶️ Marco problem with these apps that’s always been the case with Aperture and Lightroom and I know there’s other apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there like my wife uses bridge in fact Casey for the same reason for she likes the file system approach

⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have a kid we have many pictures of the kid and she uses the file system John but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because bridge is it comes with Photoshop and it’s basically Lightroom’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco editing controls or rather Lightroom is really bridges editing controls but regardless

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s Lightroom’s editing controls all the same tools even with the same names just with a different skin

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a way that operates directly in the file system so it’s it’s more of like a fancy image browser that just browses

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your folders on your disk but can do these operations to them anyway the problem with these apps is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that you have like the professional workflow stuff like if you’re doing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shoots for clients these are not your personal photos. You don’t want to keep one giant library

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of every photo you’ve ever shot for a client merged in with the photos of your dog. That’s, you know, that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doesn’t really make sense, doesn’t really work, doesn’t really scale. And so Photoshop and, I mean, Lightroom

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Aperture were both built to address this market of professionals who do shoots with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco these big, you know, these collections, these big sets you have to like bring in and out of your library and manage and, you know, manage

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your storage in different crazy ways and everything. That’s what they’re for. There’s also this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire community of people like us, people who might buy an SLR or a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fancy camera and want really advanced editing controls for making our

⏹️ ▶️ Marco photos look good after we take them, or you know, fancy RAW controls, or you know, things like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or RAW handling rather, and then you know, lossless editing controls. There’s people like us who want that power,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the power of those editing tools, who don’t need or necessarily even want

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that crazy pro photographer workflow and storage and collection management

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that these apps bring and kind of force you to use. iPhoto actually has

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very, it has always had a very small amount of raw options. The way it used to work, and please chat correct

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me if I’m wrong with new version, but the way it used to work, the first time you edit a raw photo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you would actually have lossless raw controls there and you could make great adjustments. It

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wouldn’t really indicate that except for like a little raw badge in the corner but you were doing like it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco wasn’t like importing a JPEG and operating on that you were actually working on the raw first but as soon as

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you exited that first edit it would it would write the changes it would bake them into the JPEG preview

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and then you’d never have losses editing on that file after that unless you totally reverted it back to original and then reprocessed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it and so iPhoto had these like half-assed raw editing controls

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it looks for it looks to almost Almost all of the hints we got, almost all the info we got,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you look at the articles that reported the apertures being discontinued, they all came with this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco additional screenshot of the Photos app that we haven’t seen before, that wasn’t in the keynote, that shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco controls and things that weren’t in the keynote. And it looks a lot like Aperture and Lightroom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It looks like it has a ton of editing controls in the right-hand column.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really advanced stuff beyond what you normally get in iPhoto, and looks like the same kind of stuff you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get in Aperture and Lightroom. It sure looks like what they’ve really done here

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is now we will have the simplified management of iPhoto and all the convenience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the files being synced and being part of our official photo library on our Macs and our iPhones and our iPads

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it looks like they’ve finally given they finally give an iPhoto or the new Photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app rather but they finally brought those pro level editing tools into the consumer level

⏹️ ▶️ Marco photo management app which is something we’ve never had before you know as I said iPhoto used to have kind of this half-assed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco version but it sure looks like they’re giving us exactly what people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like us want. This is not what pro photographers really need but it certainly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is what people like me and you guys need you know where it’s still a consumer

⏹️ ▶️ Marco app it’s gonna have simple management I’m sure probably very similar to the iOS photos app but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has all these advanced controls and that to me it I’m very excited about this I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I’m gonna stop using Lightroom but I might like it looks like it’s good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough that I’m that it might be it might be good enough for me to drop Lightroom entirely

⏹️ ▶️ John well they’re editing controls the big thing they were showing in the keynote was you know not just prosumer but going

⏹️ ▶️ John down to consumer level when consumers are faced with the actual controls available in Aperture Lightroom

⏹️ ▶️ John they’d have no idea what to do I don’t know what to do like it’s just it’s too complicated there’s too much involved you’re never gonna get anything right.

⏹️ ▶️ John So that’s why iPhoto just has a big red button called Enhance that tries to do something reasonable and then it’s got a few tweaks

⏹️ ▶️ John for, you know, a few other minor controls. The Photos app is trying to take it farther. It’s like,

⏹️ ▶️ John we are going to sort of kind of expose all the crazy controls you see, but we’re also going to give you a Brig-friendly

⏹️ ▶️ John slider that says, please make picture better now, along some axes, and that slider won’t

⏹️ ▶️ John adjust any one thing. That slider will adjust 17 factors and not even in a constant ratio.

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to do like a smart adjustment because they know that most people don’t know enough to correctly

⏹️ ▶️ John adjust the little sliders to get everything right so they want to and they know that the big red enhance button is also

⏹️ ▶️ John the other end of the spectrum it’s not good enough they want to give you some control you tell oh this picture is a little bit too

⏹️ ▶️ John dark this picture looks like it’s a little bit underexposed like if you can get a few basic concepts and then grab a hold of one

⏹️ ▶️ John of those sliders they will do sophisticated stuff behind the covers that involves adjusting a hundred sliders

⏹️ ▶️ John to try to get you something nice And this is moving farther and farther away from professionals and towards the realm of consumers

⏹️ ▶️ John But trying to make it useful you’re like if we give this picture to a pro they could make it look better than you ever Will but

⏹️ ▶️ John how close can we get you without teaching you really anything? but some basic concepts

⏹️ ▶️ John about photography And did you see the larger screenshot that someone put in the chat room?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it confirms. I think pretty much everything

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, it does actually it’s hard to see in this picture But it actually almost looks kind of light roomy in terms of like the UI,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know know, like less like aperture with this strange squinty pro interface and all

⏹️ ▶️ John that stuff. But so I made I made a list of pros and cons for the photos

⏹️ ▶️ John app that’s going to be replacing this from my perspective, because despite all the editing stuff that you just talked about,

⏹️ ▶️ John I think most people don’t edit their photos. I bet that people most people don’t even hit the big red enhance button. I bet most people

⏹️ ▶️ John don’t even crop their photos. I think they just collect them

⏹️ ▶️ John and then have want to find have some way to go through them. So organization is the more important thing. But

⏹️ ▶️ John so from my perspective, what I do with things in iPhoto is the reason I add all this metadata

⏹️ ▶️ John is for organizational purposes. So that I can do things like, I just have too many damn pictures. So I

⏹️ ▶️ John can do things like three plus stars featuring my daughter from Long Island in 2010.

⏹️ ▶️ John And that will give me like seven photos if I wanted to make a calendar page if we’re printing out a family calendar

⏹️ ▶️ John of cute pictures of my daughter on the beach in that time. And

⏹️ ▶️ John how do I get to do that? out of my thousands and thousands and thousands of photos because I rate every single one of them, because I keyword

⏹️ ▶️ John them, because I make sure the face recognition works so that I can do smart searches and smart albums that

⏹️ ▶️ John very quickly give me the seven or eight good pictures out of the hundreds or thousands

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I took. And I would say that puts you in a severe minority. I mean, I would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bet, you’re totally right, most people don’t even edit their photos, don’t even crop them, but I would also bet almost,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, comparably nobody actually edits the metadata.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, well, I’m not saying that’s the right solution. I’m saying that’s what I’ve done. But what I think, actually, before I get

⏹️ ▶️ John to my pros and cons, but I think the correct solution for the Photos app is dump all the photos into one big thing and

⏹️ ▶️ John give people the ability to like. Not, obviously, you can’t use Facebook’s Like, but I think that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John something people can do. People can take a bunch of photos. People can go, there’s maybe, all the photos that someone takes,

⏹️ ▶️ John the person who took the pictures goes through them at least once. Like, they wanna look at the pictures they took.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not even sure that’s a safe assumption, but go ahead.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they take the photos, they go through them once, they say, oh, that’s a good one. And if they had a little button that would do like

⏹️ ▶️ John or star or whatever, then at the end of their vacation, 1% of their photos or 2% or

⏹️ ▶️ John depending how kind they are to themselves have little stars in them. And then in the future, when they want to see

⏹️ ▶️ John show me all the good pictures from that vacation, they don’t want to go through 1,000 pictures. Just show me the ones that I said were good. That kind of

⏹️ ▶️ John binary good bad type thing where you don’t say bad, you just say good. Maybe there’s a bad option to, I guess,

⏹️ ▶️ John put in the trash or whatever. Is there a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parking lot?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, no, but the thing is, so let use myself as a quote-unquote normal insofar

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as I take pictures only with my iPhone. We have no point and shoot other than that. We have no

⏹️ ▶️ Casey SLR. I know that we’ll all probably change when Sprout’s here, but nevertheless,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey as it is today, we only have our iPhones. What inevitably happens is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ll take a picture because the occasion strikes my fancy and I think that I might want to capture

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that moment, and it goes into my photo stream roll thing, whatever, on

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the phone. And then every couple of months, I remember that, ooh, I should probably take this off my phone.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I hook up image capture. I hook it up to the Mac, run image capture, dump everything into

⏹️ ▶️ Casey one folder, and never look at it again. And these photos are extremely

⏹️ ▶️ Casey important to me, yet I never ever look at them.

⏹️ ▶️ John But no one wants to see pictures of you and your wife. People are going to want to see pictures of your child. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re going to be faced with the problem of send me three good pictures, And or you’re going to be making cute

⏹️ ▶️ John little kid things, like I mentioned the calendars, or little books, or some baby’s first

⏹️ ▶️ John year type things. Stuff like that comes up, and you want to distribute them. So you will be faced with some kind

⏹️ ▶️ John of sorting problem. Because A, you’ll have way more pictures than you have of yourself and your wife, because you’ll take a million

⏹️ ▶️ John pictures of your kid. And B, people will want them, but people won’t want a million of them. They just want the one or two

⏹️ ▶️ John good ones, right? So you will be faced with that task eventually of having

⏹️ ▶️ John vastly increased volume, but also having the task before you to come up with two or three good ones. And you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ John to want to because you’re going to want to show your kid being the cute as possible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I understand that. But I think if it’s again, sitting here now, very ignorant because I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t know what it’s like to be a parent yet. I think I would just think to myself, hmm, when

⏹️ ▶️ Casey did Sprout have or whatever? We’re going to name him or her. When did Sprout

⏹️ ▶️ Casey look cute? When do I remember taking a good picture? What day was that?

⏹️ ▶️ John He still thinks his memory’s gonna work after the child gets here. It’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so cute. No, but honestly, I think that’s what most people do. I think most people, they just browse on a timeline.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s all I do. Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John the timeline gets big. I mean, like I said, I’m not saying people need to be rating each individual one and cropping

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I’m saying, even like when people put stuff on Facebook, people like other people’s photos on Facebook.

⏹️ ▶️ John People say, yes, that is a good picture, no, that is not a good one. Just the binary, that little binary thing,

⏹️ ▶️ John because every picture on Facebook gets one or two likes, but individual people don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John like every single photo they see. So too with your own pictures. If you look at them at all ever,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s not too much to ask, oh, that’s a cute one, and just click a little thing. People fave tweets for crying out loud. It’s the same thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do people read all their Twitter stream? No, but sometimes they see one and they fave it. I think that is the appropriate level

⏹️ ▶️ John of granularity for sorting.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And I’m with you. And the funny thing is, I actually believe in having the metadata, which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is what I did in that two months that I spent or whatever it was with I with I photo. And I tried

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to create and generate all that metadata so I could do exactly what you’re describing and the thought of being

⏹️ ▶️ Casey able to say, oh, the picture of Aaron that I liked when we were at some friend’s wedding and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting there instantly. That sounds extremely appealing to me. It really does.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But all the work I would have to go through to get to that point, I have no interest

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in whatsoever.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s I mean, face detection is an example. Like I was using keywording before I face detection resistant to keyword

⏹️ ▶️ John each of the people But if you have face detection the computer can do that part for you Like you don’t have to find keyword things

⏹️ ▶️ John as having Aaron in them just the face detection will narrow that down for you It’s not gonna be 100% effective But look at all the work

⏹️ ▶️ John at C if you didn’t have to categorize pictures as having Aaron in them or not The program did it for you

⏹️ ▶️ John program? Probably you get to the point where it can save things for you in terms of framing and composition and whether it’s in

⏹️ ▶️ John focus or not You know that that’s that’s where they’re trying to get there what what Apple is

⏹️ ▶️ John trying to do is make it so that normal people can have the photo experience that I have through

⏹️ ▶️ John Diligent work that I put into my photo library.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think that’s it. I think they’re I think they’re trying to adapt

⏹️ ▶️ Marco from a world of people Hoping to use it like you and usually not and failing

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They’re trying to adapt from that world to the way people actually use their photo libraries

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today

⏹️ ▶️ John I know but they want them to have the they want them to have the advantages that I have without the work That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John what I’m getting at. Same thing with the editing. They want them to be able to edit photos kind of sort of like a pro

⏹️ ▶️ John without knowing anything that the pros know. They want them to be able to find their photos quickly, the ones that they like, without

⏹️ ▶️ John having to put any work into organizing them and saying which ones are good and putting them into little albums and doing all that other

⏹️ ▶️ John stuff. That’s what all their things are towards. They want you to have powerful features without putting in a lot of work.

⏹️ ▶️ John All right, so what are your pros and cons? All right, so this is from my perspective, obviously, as an iPhoto user. So

⏹️ ▶️ John we already touched on a lot of these pros, just to go down the list here. So full cloud backup of everything, assuming

⏹️ ▶️ John you pay enough money. That’s the point. We’ve talked about this forever. What they seem to be saying is

⏹️ ▶️ John all your photos will be everywhere. We’ll take care of it. They’ll all be in the cloud. They’ll be full resolution,

⏹️ ▶️ John assuming you pay us enough money. But I mean, fine, whatever. Like if they come through on that and the pricing

⏹️ ▶️ John is not outside my price range, I would call that a pro because right now I have to

⏹️ ▶️ John roll my own solution for that. Whereas in the system I wouldn’t need to. No one device has

⏹️ ▶️ John to hold all your photos. So if my Mac isn’t big enough to hold my photo library, if my phone isn’t big enough to hold my photo library,

⏹️ ▶️ John if my iPad isn’t big enough, doesn’t matter. They don’t all need to be in any one device. They’re all in the cloud. Some subset

⏹️ ▶️ John of Omnium is on your devices. You don’t have to worry about it. But all photos are browsable, are

⏹️ ▶️ John available to you on all devices. So just because all your pictures can’t fit on your phone, if you scroll back to, you know, 1996,

⏹️ ▶️ John you should still be able to browse through there, even though those aren’t, you know, so dynamically taken care of what’s

⏹️ ▶️ John on the device, what’s not. Like, that’s the whole promise of this system, getting us out of individual

⏹️ ▶️ John applications and stuff like that. Presumably, edits show up everywhere. So if you crop a photo on your phone, if

⏹️ ▶️ John you crop it on your Mac, if you crop it on your iPad, wherever you do that work to it, that edit would

⏹️ ▶️ John show up everywhere. You don’t, oh, I cropped that on my phone, but the version on my iPhone library isn’t cropped. Or the one in PhotoStream is cropped,

⏹️ ▶️ John but the one in my library isn’t. Like, all these weird things like that, presumably, would show up everywhere. And

⏹️ ▶️ John also, presumably, organizational changes show up everywhere. If they have a concept of an album and if you happen to make

⏹️ ▶️ John an album, I would hope that that album shows up everywhere that your pictures are. So if you

⏹️ ▶️ John make the album on your Mac, the album would show up on your phone. If you make the album on your phone, it shows up on your iPad. You know, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John the dream of this arrangement of being divorced from a program that

⏹️ ▶️ John lives in one place that has a library that’s in a folder or in some big, you know, bundle thing or

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. Now, on the con side, the one I immediately think of is,

⏹️ ▶️ John how do I make a backup of this? How do I make a local backup? Because if all my photos aren’t on my Mac, and all my photos

⏹️ ▶️ John aren’t on my iPod, and all my photos aren’t on my, you know, iPad, what if

⏹️ ▶️ John I want to have a hard drive in my house, or even just do like an on my own online backup to Backblaze or whatever?

⏹️ ▶️ John How do I do that? How do I make a backup of this? Or am I out of the picture on that now? And I’m sorry, you’re not

⏹️ ▶️ John allowed to have a backup of it. And that leads me to the second column, which is what’s my recourse if some of my pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John disappear, Say I buy into the system, upload all my stuff, all my pictures are in the cloud, some subset of

⏹️ ▶️ John them is all my devices, then I try to go back to some pictures from, you know, 2004 that I know,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, we took a beach vacation, and I can’t find them, or they’re there and they’re all blank white, or they’re all scrambled,

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. What is my recourse? I don’t have a local backup, remember, and now they’re all screwed up. Or what if they all spawn duplicates

⏹️ ▶️ John and I have three of every picture, and I have to go through and manually delete them? What is my reset? How do I start

⏹️ ▶️ John over if I don’t have a local backup? This is like reliability basically saying

⏹️ ▶️ John do I trust Apple to be the cloud storage for all my photos and I clearly I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John How severely will the organizational tools that I happen to use be curtailed? I presume they will curtail the organizational

⏹️ ▶️ John tools because you know, like Marco said most people don’t use half of these tools Why would they include them in the photos app?

⏹️ ▶️ John Ratings keywords albums faces events like all these things all these concepts exist in iPhoto

⏹️ ▶️ John I imagine almost all of them would be gone in photos And that’s fine for most people, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John not good for me because I put a lot of time and effort into those and What happens to that data

⏹️ ▶️ John when you know how will I import my existing iPhoto library into the system? Will there

⏹️ ▶️ John be a way for me to do that? Even just saying stuff like crops like I spent a lot of time cropping pictures that I like like that’s not

⏹️ ▶️ John a big complicated edit Is that something I’m gonna lose all my crops gonna be gone?

⏹️ ▶️ John Will there be a migration path from my photo into this thing that maintains as much of my metadata as possible?

⏹️ ▶️ John Or will it just be like nope sorry we’ll just read your original JPEGs off disk again and upload them and you’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John have to do a re-edit them and everything so in these pros and cons I’m kind of excited

⏹️ ▶️ John about the pros, but if some of these cons can’t be addressed I don’t know what I’m gonna do because I I mean particularly

⏹️ ▶️ John about the backup thing I want to have an out if this thing gets flaky or screws up my pictures

⏹️ ▶️ John in some way I need to have a local backup, and if I can’t figure out how to do that I’m just gonna have to like

⏹️ ▶️ John I I don’t know, keep using iPhoto until it doesn’t run anymore, or try to maintain two copies of everything, one in my

⏹️ ▶️ John photo library and one in this cloud thing. I’m very nervous about this.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, why can’t you just do image capture like I do and put that somewhere that gets backed up everywhere?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But

⏹️ ▶️ John then they wouldn’t be in the cloud thing. Like, if I want to buy into this photos thing, like, I like the idea of

⏹️ ▶️ John having access to my one photo library everywhere without having to have, like, literally 500

⏹️ ▶️ John gigabytes of photos attached to every Mac in my house. And I can’t fit it on any of my iOS devices.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, I want to see my photos from everywhere. I want to have one big shared library that everyone can see,

⏹️ ▶️ John or at least the same Apple ID in every system can see this gets into the family sharing thing that drives me nuts.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But no, no, I’m with you. I’m saying, maybe even just leave the pictures

⏹️ ▶️ Casey on your iPhone, if you will. Or I don’t know what you would do with an SLR.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But in addition to whatever the normal procedure is for the new way

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to handle photos. Also, take all the pictures, dump them on your Synology,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for example, in some drive somewhere that you’re also backing up offsite.

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that doesn’t… Presumably, when I bring the photos in, I do mess with them a little

⏹️ ▶️ John bit. At the very least, I crop them and find the ones that are good. And that work is

⏹️ ▶️ John not preserved by having a backup of folders full of pictures. Whereas now, what I’m backing

⏹️ ▶️ John up is essentially my iPhoto library, which has all the original JPEGs, yes, but also has all the associated metadata

⏹️ ▶️ John with all the stuff. So if my house burns down and I restore from a backup, what I get back is

⏹️ ▶️ John not just my original photos, I get back all my crops from them, all my metadata from them, whatever metadata there is to preserve,

⏹️ ▶️ John I get back. Whereas if I’m just backing up the individual files, but then, you know, investing my time

⏹️ ▶️ John and continuing my metadata regimes as much as I’m allowed to, at the very least with simple things

⏹️ ▶️ John like albums and if not ratings and some kind of, you know, star type system.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not backing that up anywhere that goes away. And it’s not like I think my house is going to burn. I think it’s going to go away because

⏹️ ▶️ John the early versions are going to be buggy and it’s going to screw up in some way and I’m going to want to reset or I’m going to want to restore from backup

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever and I’m not going to be able to.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, I think this is really though a very uncommon case. I mean, first of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all, I think this is going to work like almost all these other, you know, iCloud type services and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Android, whatever their thing is for Amazon for their new thing. Most people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco are not going to have their own backup. Most people are going to be totally at the whims of the system,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’ll work fine for most of them. I really think that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just not going to be an issue for most people.

⏹️ ▶️ John I said these were my pros and cons, but like even for things like contacts, contacts, the entirety of people’s

⏹️ ▶️ John contacts is probably the size of one photo from one photo from an SLR. And yet,

⏹️ ▶️ John people have trouble with contacts. Duplicate contacts, contacts being lost, edits to one contact not showing up in another place.

⏹️ ▶️ John If Apple can’t get that right with such an incredibly low data volume, and if that continues to be, as I think it is, from

⏹️ ▶️ John dealing with my relatives at least, managing contacts continues to be a problem. Keeping them in sync,

⏹️ ▶️ John even if you’re 100% on the Apple system, keeping them in sync, making sure all your edits are available in all places. Contacts

⏹️ ▶️ John are less precious than photos. And I’m not sure Apple has proven that it’s up to the task to

⏹️ ▶️ John even doing, Forget about metadata. Forget about anything else. Just the concept of I’ve taken a photo.

⏹️ ▶️ John It exists or doesn’t exist. And it is accessible everywhere. Simply that. It may be

⏹️ ▶️ John below the bar of things that Apple is able to pull off, or has thus far proven that it’s able to pull off. Because I can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John think of a single system that involves data goes in one place and is available everywhere, that

⏹️ ▶️ John works flawlessly and has reasonable debugging recourse in Apple’s environment.

⏹️ ▶️ John Whether it’s photos, or we just talked about messages last time which is just simple text I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John my confidence is low

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah and I think that’s that’s fair I I think what’s going to happen is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll work great for most people and and by the way I think most people once the photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing is clouded I guess Wow yeah sorry

⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people might lose most of the need for their own backups because you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco figure like what most people do with their computers is pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco basic by by geek standards it’s the you know you internet stuff which is kind of always inherently backed up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because as you can just log into stuff and then you know photos maybe some documents here and there well

⏹️ ▶️ Marco documents are now being moved to iCloud in a lot of cases or at least people are using Dropbox

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or things like Dropbox with the new cloud iCloud Drive thing even more people will be using something like that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so that’s kind of all covered Especially if iCloud Drive becomes like the default place to save files

⏹️ ▶️ Marco by the system which it almost certainly would be That’s backed up. You have all the contact calendars all that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco data backed up You have everything on your phone. You know your music collection your media collection

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s all backed up through iTunes match if you have that if you bought it through iTunes It’s backed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up anyway, and then you know now we’re gonna have all your photos backed up I think this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is gonna really remove the need for a lot of people to have backups and furthermore

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Or for people who don’t have backups, which is unfortunately most people, having their photos be one of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that is always inherently backed up, when they do have catastrophic data loss,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’ll be much less of an issue. It’ll be much less devastating because they will have all their photos

⏹️ ▶️ Marco again. And that’s something that people almost always, like that’s their number one regret when they have data loss,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they lost their photos from X time interval or this entire kid’s existence or something like that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think the benefit here is impossible to overstate.

⏹️ ▶️ John We talked about this many times. We all want this. We all want it to be to someone to take care of our photos.

⏹️ ▶️ John What I’m saying now is not that I think it’s a bad idea for our photos to be in the cloud, is that I want someone to take care of my photos,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m not sure that Apple is the one that I trust. And even like, even the EverPix scenario,

⏹️ ▶️ John the reason EverPix was exciting was because EverPix would promise take care of all your photos.

⏹️ ▶️ John But I was not entrusting my photos to EverPix because I still had my iPhoto library. I mean, I was

⏹️ ▶️ John still backing up. Like, it was one more thing. It’s the scariness of saying,

⏹️ ▶️ John not only is Apple volunteering to take care of your photos, and not only do you hope Apple’s going to do this right, but

⏹️ ▶️ John your photos won’t be anyplace else. Like, you have, like, all your eggs are in one basket,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you just better watch that basket, right? And if it works, like, that’s exactly what we want. Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John please take care of the photo problem for us. And like you said, like, the amount of local data, like, why don’t we just all buy Chromebooks at

⏹️ ▶️ John this point? Because if we won’t, you know, everything’s in Dropbox are in iCloud, and your photos are all backed up, and

⏹️ ▶️ John your iMessages are all backed up. What local data is that? Your email’s all on a server somewhere, using IMAP.

⏹️ ▶️ John The stuff that’s local to your device, it becomes just like a local cache, which is, again, what we’re all looking for, is tiered

⏹️ ▶️ John storage with a grid-fast local cache. But none of your data needs to be there. So you could smash

⏹️ ▶️ John your computer with a hammer, get a new one, sign in with your Apple ID, download Dropbox, install it, wait a

⏹️ ▶️ John day and a half for your caches to warm up, and then you’re back in business. That’s where we want to all

⏹️ ▶️ John get. It’s just that I’m not sure Apple has proven that it’s the one to take us there. Like, Cloud Kit,

⏹️ ▶️ John which apparently this is all based on, is way better technologically speaking from a understandability standpoint

⏹️ ▶️ John than the previous one. So signs point in the right direction, as does the idea that they’re even doing this at all.

⏹️ ▶️ John That they’re having the guts to say they’re putting all their eggs on baskets too. Aperture gone, iPhoto gone, photos is the way,

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s cloud backup for everything. And then they say, trust us, and wink.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. And I think I totally agree with you that it is very important how they implement

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Mac client. Things like, how does it store its files? Is there an option somewhere

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say, always store my entire library on this computer? So you can do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things like maintain your own backups. Because look, I think that’s important too. As much

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as I put a lot of faith in the Apple ecosystem, I’m also not an idiot, and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will always maintain my own backups as well. And I wouldn’t use a photo system that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco didn’t give me that option to easily and reasonably do that and automatically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that. It is very important. And I hope Apple knows that when they’re implementing this. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this might be one of those things where it might get worse before it gets better. You know, maybe version one might not have much of that visibility

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or might not have the right limits or the right options rather.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, like you said, like the people who care about that, that’s not who this is designed for. And I wouldn’t blame Apple for never

⏹️ ▶️ John having that feature in there. It’s just that they just they need to get it right. Like the rest of it. Like the big thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is there needs to be some recourse. Say something goes weird and all your pictures are black like mine were in PhotoStream for a while.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or like you just get a bunch of black squares that are the right aspect ratios and the right sizes, but they’re all black. What

⏹️ ▶️ John do I do in that case? Do I just stare at it and hope? Do I like delete the PhotoStream

⏹️ ▶️ John and reinstall it? Do I delete all my local photos and re-sync them? Like I

⏹️ ▶️ John tried all those things and they kept coming back black. What do I do at that point? And if that was the only place my photos are, I’d be freaking

⏹️ ▶️ John out, right? And so I’m not saying that again, I’m not saying they need a way to debug this. They just need to either

⏹️ ▶️ John get it right all the time or give people some kind of tool to fix it when it’s not. And getting

⏹️ ▶️ John it right all the time is preferable, but maybe asking too much.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco As we move to this world of cloud stuff and cloud-hosted things, we do

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lose a lot of that flexibility and a lot of those fail-safes of, like, if I want to,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for example, if I wanted to move my entire iTunes library to a new computer,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way I would always do it would be to actually just move the entire directory over.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it worked, because everything, all the data it read was there. And it was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all baked into this one folder. And you could quit the app, move this folder, restart

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the app, bing! All of a sudden there’s all your stuff. Whereas something like this that’s more opaque or something that’s cloud-based,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t do that. It does make it hard to do things like restore from a backup or undo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a major bulk change.

⏹️ ▶️ John Or like sign out of one Apple ID and sign into another Apple ID and then you’re like, oh, is it gonna blow away all my photos

⏹️ ▶️ John from the previous Apple ID? Is there gonna be smart and save them? Like iPhoto,

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, they designed it in but then it kind of hid the feature. That’s why you had applications like iPhoto Library Manager

⏹️ ▶️ John or just hold down the option key when you launch iPhoto if you don’t know about that to pick a different library. So we have multiple iPhoto

⏹️ ▶️ John libraries where we’ve split things off various times that is a not it’s even less commonly used feature

⏹️ ▶️ John I think.

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⏹️ ▶️ Marco to hover. All right, so we done with this photos thing. We’re never done with the photos thing, but we can be done tonight.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that’s what I meant. I mean, we’re, we’re, we’re turning into the prompt at this point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’re probably gonna get a mountain of feedback on

⏹️ ▶️ John this too. The next exciting step in the photos thing will be like after

⏹️ ▶️ John you know the release versions of all these different OS’s come out and I assuming there is any upgrade

⏹️ ▶️ John path I try taking my iPhoto library and saying here you go photos what do you make of this

⏹️ ▶️ John and then we wait I suppose and see what happens. Does it do I end in a functional

⏹️ ▶️ John final situation? Does it you know how long does it take to get the photos there? You

⏹️ ▶️ John know does it do I require double the amount of storage space to get to the final destination I don’t know that will

⏹️ ▶️ John be an exciting day certainly I would do lots of backups first

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing that I mean this this is a really really promising thing for people who have smaller devices

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like this is I think this is gonna dramatically reduce the amount of space a lot of people need on their iOS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco devices which is funny is like that the other rumors are this might be this might finally be the year where they start at 32

⏹️ ▶️ John baby year they finally do a storage bump yeah I keep hoping that for iTunes match because I like iTunes

⏹️ ▶️ John match except when it totally destroys my installation of iTunes, causing it to absorb gigabytes of memory every time I launch

⏹️ ▶️ John it. But other than that, when it works, I like it. And I like the idea that

⏹️ ▶️ John I enable it on my iOS devices. Because the whole idea is that if I start to run out of space, the OS is supposed

⏹️ ▶️ John to say, oh, well, let me just start ditching some of these audio files.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because I know they’re on iTunes Match, and if the person listens to them, I’ll just stream them down later. You know what I mean? It’s supposed to

⏹️ ▶️ John be like cache space. It’s expendable. I don’t need to sync a particular playlist onto my

⏹️ ▶️ John iPod. I can have my entire music collection available and just the songs that I play can be there. And there’s a little cloud button.

⏹️ ▶️ John You can say download this whole playlist and stuff like that. And I hope that doesn’t mean that it’s now going to refuse

⏹️ ▶️ John to expunge from memory the ones I forcibly downloaded. But every time I start

⏹️ ▶️ John to fill up on disk space, I’m like, why don’t you just pull things, some stuff off iTunes match? That’s the kind of the point of it. So photos,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m hoping for the same thing, that I’ll have access to all my photos, but that at any one time, I don’t guarantee that

⏹️ ▶️ John any of them are actually on the device because you know they wouldn’t all fit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I think that’s how it was advertised to work We’ll have to go We’ll have to see what happens But I’m

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pretty sure that was the whole idea was that All your photos will be backed up as long as you subscribe to one of these plan

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things And what do you get for free you get a pretty good amount to wasn’t it like 20 gigs or something?

⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever it is. It’s pointless for me, but yeah for regular people It’s a good starter thing to get you suckered into eventually having to pay

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right and but yeah I think the whole idea was like this is this is a big part of I think

⏹️ ▶️ Marco their solution to iOS storage management, which is just start removing some of them some of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the biggest things that fill everyone’s space.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ John and make it so they’re removable make it so they can be purged basically if space starts to get tight because

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t really purge apps. I mean, they haven’t gotten to that point. They’ll the apps are going to stay. So if you download some big giant

⏹️ ▶️ John game,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, they do run the cleaning things. Yeah, the cleaning path that that kills all the apps temporary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco things and deletes all your newsstand issues

⏹️ ▶️ John in theory they could delete like oh we’re gonna get rid of infinity blade because it’s gigantic and the next time you play it we’ll download after

⏹️ ▶️ John you tap it will still keep the icon there but when you tap it it’ll be like oh yeah actually we

⏹️ ▶️ John removed that from your system earlier i’ll see if there’s room now and download yeah you can’t get blood from a stone like storage

⏹️ ▶️ John is they don’t have magical transparent tiered storage ending the cloud quite yet but this is all along the path

⏹️ ▶️ John there

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you want to tell me what you think about the Airport Extreme?

⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t think much about it at all because I don’t have one, other than I didn’t like it because it has a fan, but we’ve discussed that in the past. But

⏹️ ▶️ John today, I saw something retweeted from Jim Ray on Twitter, I forget

⏹️ ▶️ John who retweeted it, and it was about the new airport,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, the big tower thing, the thing that looks It’s like a tissue box stowed on its end

⏹️ ▶️ John and it’s designed to hold a hard drive but only the time capsule version holds a hard drive but both the time

⏹️ ▶️ John capsule and the hard drive less airport use the same

⏹️ ▶️ John case. Anyway, this was not about the fans or the hard drive. This was about ports

⏹️ ▶️ John on the back. Do you guys load the pictures that I put in there? I did. I saw that and he’s

⏹️ ▶️ John totally right. All right. So here’s the tweet from Jim Ray. It says, design is how it works

⏹️ ▶️ John in quotes. Hey Johnny, which he spelled wrong, but that’s okay. Maybe turn the ports 90 degrees so we can actually

⏹️ ▶️ John unplug the goddamn things. And what he’s talking about is the Ethernet jacks on the back of this vertical tower

⏹️ ▶️ John airport base station. The Ethernet ports are done so the little

⏹️ ▶️ John clicky, whatever you call it, release thing on the RJ-45 things is on the

⏹️ ▶️ John top. But the ports are stacked on top of each other, so to release the middle one, you have to wedge

⏹️ ▶️ John your finger between the middle one and the top one and get your fingernail onto that little thing and then try to

⏹️ ▶️ John disengage it and he’s saying rotate them 90 degrees so that all of the little

⏹️ ▶️ John whatever they are release thingies would all be accessible it all be on the left side or on the right side instead of

⏹️ ▶️ John having them instead of having to shove your fingers between the two little ports the picture explains it better we’ll put the picture

⏹️ ▶️ John in the show so you can take a look at it and I retweeted this because I thought this was

⏹️ ▶️ John a very good point and it reminded me of a sore spot that I have.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m calling it Johnny Ive design, which is not fair because he’s just the head of a large design team. He’s not designing all these things

⏹️ ▶️ John himself. He’s not even like telling people how they should be designed. He has a team of people designing them. Presumably

⏹️ ▶️ John he approves them or disapproves or gives advice, but it’s not all his fault. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can you imagine Johnny Ive sitting around like for like 90 days working on this brand new

⏹️ ▶️ Marco revolutionary design for a wireless router?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, but the thing is, like people think that he’s there and he designs everything. So if they come out, you know, it was his

⏹️ ▶️ John idea to make the the Mac a trash can it was his idea to design the iMac and like and certain

⏹️ ▶️ John things are his

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco idea like

⏹️ ▶️ John he he has he has certain things that are his designs but so many other things aren’t he’s got an entire

⏹️ ▶️ John team but he’s the figurehead and so I’m blaming it all on him because you know

⏹️ ▶️ John the buck’s got to stop somewhere when I look at this I know exactly why the ports are that way

⏹️ ▶️ John on this thing or at least so I tell myself and you know because I just go into the mind of Johnny Ivor the mind

⏹️ ▶️ John of his organization that he runs, and I’ve looked at all the products that they’ve made over the years, and

⏹️ ▶️ John it seems clear to me that they are that way because it looks better that way. And this is the

⏹️ ▶️ John tension, aesthetics versus usability. And the whole design is how it works thing

⏹️ ▶️ John makes it sound like that the balance is way over, oh, usability is the most important thing

⏹️ ▶️ John and aesthetics are secondary. But if you look at any device that came out of the Johnny Ive Apple,

⏹️ ▶️ John even in the pre-Steve Jobs error that he had a hand in designing or was ahead of the design studio

⏹️ ▶️ John when it was made. Aesthetics is a huge part of how it’s designed and

⏹️ ▶️ John far be it for me to say that aesthetics shouldn’t be a factor because then everything would look like oxo good grips right oh i bet even

⏹️ ▶️ John then there’s some aesthetics creeping in there uh but there’s a balance between make it usable

⏹️ ▶️ John but also make it look nice but hopefully don’t compromise on the usability too much for for the sake of

⏹️ ▶️ John aesthetics. And I think the Johnny Ive apple, if we’re going to call it

⏹️ ▶️ John that, has crossed the line many, many times and is stubborn about it and will not go back.

⏹️ ▶️ John And this, the back of the airport looks like a situation where they crossed the line. Not a big deal, because all

⏹️ ▶️ John the people on Twitter replied, said, oh, how often do you plug and unplug things? Who really cares?

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s not too hard to wedge your fingers in there. If they rotated them 90 degrees, it would have been more expensive

⏹️ ▶️ John and all sorts like that. And I mostly didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John pursue these avenues except for the most expensive, more expensive ones. So I looked at I immediately went to the iFixit tear down to see what

⏹️ ▶️ John the heck was going on inside there. And that’s in another link in the notes. And it turns out that

⏹️ ▶️ John the ports which should not be surprising to anybody who has seen one of these towers or the new

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Pro, the ports are already at 45 degree angles coming off of the printed circuit board. So

⏹️ ▶️ John there are obviously expense is not this is not like, what’s the cheapest way we can make these

⏹️ ▶️ John Ethernet ports pop out of this board, just solder them on. They’re already coming out at a 45 degree angle and they’re coming out at

⏹️ ▶️ John a 45 degree angle with the contacts running…

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know how to explain this. The distance from each contact to the printed circuit board

⏹️ ▶️ John is different so the contact closest to you when you’re looking at the printed circuit board

⏹️ ▶️ John flat is much longer than the contact closest to the board because it’s in an angle that way. If they were rotated 90 degrees

⏹️ ▶️ John as suggested it seems to me that that if anything it would either be the same price or cheaper to mount them that

⏹️ ▶️ John way because then all the contacts from the Ethernet connectors would have equal distances to the board but who

⏹️ ▶️ John knows maybe it’s the same price but the point is this this device was not designed with cost

⏹️ ▶️ John concerns if you look at how it was constructed it’s kind of like the Mac Pro and like a with the hard drive on an angle

⏹️ ▶️ John in the middle with with fins and more sort of a chimney type effect and it is it’s a very fancy

⏹️ ▶️ John design it is not made to be the cheapest possible thing to manufacture inside

⏹️ ▶️ John it it looks fairly expensive so I’m not gonna buy cost there

⏹️ ▶️ John you get back to right so if it’s not if it costs us anything sir why are these things vertical and I really do think it looks better

⏹️ ▶️ John when they’re vertical it’s symmetrical if you were to divide the device in half vertically if you were to draw a straight

⏹️ ▶️ John line down the middle of these ports and split it in half it’s symmetrical on the right and left side whereas if the ports were sideways

⏹️ ▶️ John the rest of the device would be vertically symmetrical but then the ports would not be one half would have the little flanges one half wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have it. And this is not that big a deal, but

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s emblematic of the line that I think the modern Apple crosses

⏹️ ▶️ John many other times. And I put a couple of examples, other examples in the show notes that I’ve complained about previously on the show.

⏹️ ▶️ John The MacBook keyboards, this is a little bit economics too. So you can throw Tim Cook under

⏹️ ▶️ John the bus for this one as well. Why does the 15 inch and why did back in the day, the 17 inch one have

⏹️ ▶️ John the exact same keyboard as the smaller model? Makes no sense. There’s no reason that the current 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Air can’t have full-size arrow keys. Oh, there’s a reason, because they want to use the same exact keyboard they do on all

⏹️ ▶️ John the other MacBooks. And on the Airs, for that matter. There’s an economy of scale

⏹️ ▶️ John there, but it’s also making the larger product worse, most

⏹️ ▶️ John charitably to save money, and least charitably because if you put full-size arrow keys, then the keyboard wouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John be symmetrical anymore, and it looks ugly. So why it doesn’t have full-size arrow keys because the little inverted T would be

⏹️ ▶️ John on one side but not on the other. Or any sort of key type arrangement to try to get a

⏹️ ▶️ John reasonable inverted T in there would necessarily bump out somewhere or push some other keys around

⏹️ ▶️ John or otherwise be awkward. Ports on the back of the iMac. It’s great being able

⏹️ ▶️ John to plug things into the front of my old style tower macro even if I have to bend down a little bit for it. Having

⏹️ ▶️ John ports accessible to you when you want to plug something in quickly is great. The iMac has all the ports in the back because it’s prettier

⏹️ ▶️ John every time you want to plug and unplug something you got to dig around back there it is not comfortable it’s not a good experience

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s actually one of the frequent annoyances with the new Mac Pro is that there isn’t I don’t have two front

⏹️ ▶️ Marco USB ports anymore and I use those all the time on my old Mac Pro and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the new one like the if I want a USB port I need to turn the thing around and go to the back and get fingerprints

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all over it and it’s not nearly as useful as having them right there on the front but I I recognize that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it would not look as good if it had USB ports on the front side of it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Now that’s a little bit of a size constraint too, because that machine got so much smaller that so many things become, oh, the answer is now

⏹️ ▶️ John have a breakout box. And so you could have a little breakout USB hub and stick that on your desk somewhere. Like that’s always the answer

⏹️ ▶️ John for that tiny little Mac Pro is, oh, well, you can’t fit it inside and you can’t fit it on, but you can connect

⏹️ ▶️ John a cable to and then have a peripheral. I give it a little bit of an out for the size thing, but it’s similar in,

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re mentioning how weird it is to try to plug things into the back of it. like, are the ports aligned

⏹️ ▶️ John along a line that goes through the center of the Mac, or are they… I don’t even know the

⏹️ ▶️ John answer to this, you can tell me. Are they… are the ports parallel to each other in the two rows, or are they all

⏹️ ▶️ John perpendicular… is the horizontal surface of the ports perpendicular to a tangent of the circle?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t think I know what you mean, however, the surface that the ports are on is curved with the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco case.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right, but what are the ports like? Are the two USB ports parallel to

⏹️ ▶️ John each other? If you were to extend lines out along the USB ports, would they be parallel to each other or would

⏹️ ▶️ John the lines intersect? They would diverge. Yeah, because basically the two

⏹️ ▶️ John USB ports are pointed in different directions. Yeah, because they follow the curvature. Right, so you could make

⏹️ ▶️ John the two USB ports both exactly like flat and going forward. Instead, they both go towards the center.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so you have to sort of calculate the angle when you’re plugging in back there. So your cables jut out of it at angles instead of judging out

⏹️ ▶️ John stream

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and all the ports feel the same to which. So you have like you have to turn it around and look because all like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the ports are almost the same size and all feel the same. Like you have you have the four USBs and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then the six thunderbolts right next to each other. Everything’s very close to each other. And so yeah, it’s it’s not made

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be done blindly.

⏹️ ▶️ John Someone in the chat room is saying the USB ports are parallel. We’re all using the wrong terms here. I’m visualizing the right thing in my head. But

⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, what we’re saying is that if if you took that USB port and pushed it really, really hard and just tunneled

⏹️ ▶️ John through the device in exactly the direction of the port, it would hit the center of the Mac Pro. And that’s true for both of the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ports. And they would intersect. That’s correct. Yeah. And if you plug in if you plugged in two cables to them that were not flexible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at all, we’re just straight rods. They would form diverging

⏹️ ▶️ John lines. Right. And so what we’re saying for parallel was the other option they could have gone with is that the USB ports were exactly

⏹️ ▶️ John parallel. And if you were to extend cables out from them forever, perfectly stiff, they would never hit each other. That’s what we’re

⏹️ ▶️ John talking about. Anyway, I don’t know if that’s a compromise for aesthetics, but you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John the ports in the back of the iMac stand out because the iMac is such a massive machine and it’s supposed to be a home machine. It’s the type

⏹️ ▶️ John of thing that people might plug and unplug things in, but they had to be hidden there. I was going to pick the Mac cube, but that’s kind of a low blow

⏹️ ▶️ John where the ports were not only on the back, but underneath on the back. And it was super hard to get those

⏹️ ▶️ John because it looked better. And the final one I put in there was, uh, I was seven buttons. I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John they got rid of the button outline because it looked nicer, but then it wasn’t always clear whether something was a button or not.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I’m not saying these are like fatal flaws and that or that they’re always over this line. I’m saying

⏹️ ▶️ John there is a line and you have to decide where on that line you fall. And I feel like my opinion

⏹️ ▶️ John of good design is closer to usability, the usability

⏹️ ▶️ John side of the spectrum, in that in the challenge, in the tension between aesthetics and usability.

⏹️ ▶️ John And I appreciate the aesthetics. I like that they are pretty, but I’m not just designing

⏹️ ▶️ John them in a the lab and looking at plans and looking at the beautiful polish fingerprint free thing on a pedestal and saying yeah

⏹️ ▶️ John my work is done I’m using the things every day and that’s where the aesthetics start to fade

⏹️ ▶️ John and you know not so much because I don’t want some ugly PC tower like I like the aesthetics I like having beautiful things

⏹️ ▶️ John on my desk they make me feel better to have nice things like in my market you talked about looking at your little Mac Pro makes you happy to

⏹️ ▶️ John have that thing there but there’s a there’s a line between that and usability

⏹️ ▶️ John it depends on how much do you value that niceness over difficulty of getting of the ports and you know.

⏹️ ▶️ John The other one I wanted to mention is the the edges of the MacBooks where they used to be super sharp when they were unibody things

⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re not supposed to rest your wrist please everybody if you’re resting your wrist on something when you type do not rest your wrist but the bottom line is

⏹️ ▶️ John people do occasionally rest their wrists and it was way too sharp and why because it looked really nice it really did

⏹️ ▶️ John it looked very elegant but there’s a line there and it’s like that I mean they took the edge off in later models

⏹️ ▶️ John where they said okay let’s not quite make it that sharp I still think it’s a little bit over the line in terms of it looks like a beautiful piece

⏹️ ▶️ John of sculpture, but it’s not quite as pleasing to handle as it would be if it was a little bit more rounded over. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John these are just a couple examples and should people come with their own. I just feel like this balance that

⏹️ ▶️ John we have a difference of opinion if I ever got to interview johnny if this is all I would talk to him about is how do you manage the tension

⏹️ ▶️ John between aesthetics and usability and why are you so wrong in all these cases?

⏹️ ▶️ John We’d be a great interview, he would love it. I think everyone else would love it. At least no one ever

⏹️ ▶️ John talks to him about design. That’s a shame. Like when they get interviews with him, they just talk to him in a way that he can speak in generalities. No one

⏹️ ▶️ John ever, I mean, that’s not an interview. That’s why I’m a terrible interviewer. Like, an interview is you let the interviewer talk about things. You don’t have an axe

⏹️ ▶️ John to grind with them. But

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco anyway… Hey, yours

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is

⏹️ ▶️ John an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco interrogation.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah. Mine

⏹️ ▶️ John would be more of an interrogation style,

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco less of

⏹️ ▶️ John an… Yeah. This is why I don’t interview people. But anyway, I think I would enjoy it, at least.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, honestly, most people would enjoy listening to an interrogation, but most people would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not enjoy being interrogated.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think it would be a fruitful discussion because he, I’m sure he has reasons behind all these things. And it’s not like one is like totally

⏹️ ▶️ John wrong and one is totally right. It’s just where do we draw that line and why? And I mean, maybe I’m alone in thinking that

⏹️ ▶️ John that I have is a little bit farther on the aesthetics towards the aesthetic spectrum than I think

⏹️ ▶️ John most people are like we all love aesthetics. We all love beautiful Macs. We all love our beautiful iOS devices. We

⏹️ ▶️ John obviously value aesthetics, probably way more than the average person we’re willing to pay all this money for like in just the

⏹️ ▶️ John hardware, the software, We place value on this, it’s just that there

⏹️ ▶️ John is, sometimes it just seems to go a little bit too far in one little tiny area,

⏹️ ▶️ John and you feel like I would give up that little aesthetic flourish. I would give up perfectly symmetrical ports

⏹️ ▶️ John to just turn them 90 degrees. Even if I don’t unplug and plug these things, the three times a year when I have to reach back

⏹️ ▶️ John there to unplug something, it drives me nuts, and I say, oh Johnny, if you just could have rotated them 90 degrees, I’d never look

⏹️ ▶️ John at the back of this thing anyway. It would make life so much easier, And he would be tasked with defending

⏹️ ▶️ John the beauty of the symmetrical arrangement of something that people don’t look at and Doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John give them as much joy as say a super shiny Mac Pro does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well also like oh Johnny Could you maybe add more than three ethernet ports like really on it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a top-of-the-line? Wireless router

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t think he’s picking that I’m not gonna blame him for the number of ports But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, but it’s like you know like you have to and this is part of design you have to consider design in In practice, in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco real life, what people actually do, applied design, right? And the reality is, if you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco only have three Ethernet ports, a lot of people are going to ruin your awesome design by putting a big, fat, ugly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco switch right next to it. Similar thing with the Mac Pro, like, if you don’t build in enough stuff people

⏹️ ▶️ Marco use, or enough storage capacity, or enough things, enough capabilities, you’re gonna have this beautiful metal cylinder sitting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco next to the crappiest blue LED-filled USB hub,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and 10,000 thunderbolt enclosures and drive enclosures and all this crap like it that ruins

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the design like that that to me that’s actually a design flaw if you’re making a design

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that doesn’t account for real life and then in real life it will be it will simply become worse

⏹️ ▶️ John and say when i think of these designers desks and i think this was even mentioned in one of the johnny abbs book maybe about his that’s someone else but when

⏹️ ▶️ John i think of their desk i think of them arranging their beautifully designed products in the

⏹️ ▶️ John number and like that they would buy special white ethernet cables to exactly fit this. If they would arrange

⏹️ ▶️ John just in their desk, they would just have their MacBook, and they would probably not even have a cable to a big display.

⏹️ ▶️ John And maybe like these two beautiful little speakers. Like, what they would do is say, if this doesn’t have enough ports, and this doesn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have any items, then I don’t want it. Because having that item would destroy the aesthetic purity of

⏹️ ▶️ John this, or the aesthetic value, not purity. But like, just that this is a beautiful arrangement,

⏹️ ▶️ John and I would really like it if I could have an extra hard drive or more USB ports. But I do not want that

⏹️ ▶️ John feature enough to take an ugly USB hub and shove it on here You know, that’s that’s where they’re drawing the line.

⏹️ ▶️ John They say maybe it would be nice to have more USB ports But I’m willing to forego the

⏹️ ▶️ John USB ports to have a nicer desk arrangement and I make a different value judgment for my desk I’m gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John say I would rather have the USB port despite the fact that I can’t stand how ugly it is Like you just said

⏹️ ▶️ John and at that point then you revisit and why does this have so few USB ports? So why does it have so few things for maybe that’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John cost thing? Maybe that’s a feature thing or whatever like but those are the trade-offs even even the sides of a lot of the Mac books You’re like

⏹️ ▶️ John hmm this 15-inch retina MacBook Pro probably had a room for one more USB port on the side And it would really

⏹️ ▶️ John make my life easier Again, you can’t tell if that’s cost concern or space constraints inside there

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever But some some issues are more cut and dry and I think the keyboard on the 15 inches the is probably

⏹️ ▶️ John my my biggest issue Economics aside. This is an expensive piece of hardware. Give

⏹️ ▶️ John me full-size arrow keys. Give me a different keyboard

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, although I can also see that see the benefit there of as a user that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the keyboards and all the Apple products are All the same keyboard like that or they’re close enough rather

⏹️ ▶️ John But rotating through my fleet of Apple devices how many laptops do people have you know? I’m willing

⏹️ ▶️ John to say when I’m on that when I’m on the 13-inch one I will use the compact keyboard when I’m on the 15-inch

⏹️ ▶️ John I want the expansive keyboard like I mean at that point one I just have all of your Macs have Whatever the smallest screen any

⏹️ ▶️ John of them have because then your screen your engine will always be the same. It’s oh boy

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Alright, we should probably end the show. Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week Igloo

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hover and Lynda calm and we will see you next week

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now the show is over they didn’t even mean to begin because

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental Accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John didn’t do any research, Margo and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it was accidental, it was accidental

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And you can find the show notes at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you’re

⏹️ ▶️ John into Twitter, you can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M Hey guys.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh yeah, you’re here.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re

⏹️ ▶️ Marco still here. Hi. Hi.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Showbots still up.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s amazing. I thought they said it, I thought they said it died. I saw a message in the chat room like an hour ago

⏹️ ▶️ John that said it was down. They’re crazy Does it have any data in it or is

⏹️ ▶️ John it just like they’re empty? No,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s real it’s there man You don’t give me any

⏹️ ▶️ John respect. I’m loading the page now, but I’m gonna see the word connecting in a really big font

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No matter what?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Actually, I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John just gonna see the loading animation Safari Safari does this to me occasionally where I will try to load

⏹️ ▶️ John a page and And it makes me think that it thinks the OS is out of file descriptors. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, why is it waiting? This site should be fast. Why is it not opening? And I know

⏹️ ▶️ John the system is not out of file descriptors. That would manifest in a different way. But I’ve actually run into situations where the system has been out of file

⏹️ ▶️ John descriptors because I run local databases and that happens sometimes if you don’t adjust your kernel parameters.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’ll just be sitting there. And in the time that I’m waiting for the Safari page to load, I will copy

⏹️ ▶️ John the URL out of the address bar, go over to Chrome, make a new tab, paste it in, in load the web page loads instantly.

⏹️ ▶️ John I go back to Safari and it’ll still be waiting. Anyway, now it says list is more the blue gradient in the Safari

⏹️ ▶️ John address bar is about a little bit less than halfway. I still see nothing underneath the little

⏹️ ▶️ John have the little nav bar still waiting for it to load. You should restore your phone. Yeah, I agree.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m gonna do right now. I’m gonna take I’m gonna take this text. I’m gonna go over to Chrome. Paste in the URL

⏹️ ▶️ John loaded says connecting titles have loaded. Boom. Done. Let me go back to Safari, see how it’s doing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, it’s finally loaded. Wow. People wonder why I want to run both Safari and Chrome all day.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is why.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So now that it has survived an entire show because even if it craps out now I’m counting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Is there a sort by votes? No. And that’s exactly what I was about to say is I think the next

⏹️ ▶️ Casey step is sort by votes.

⏹️ ▶️ John What do you mean there’s no sort by what’s the point of the show about if

⏹️ ▶️ Casey there’s no sort by votes? Because I wanted to make sure the show bot could live john I wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey life to find a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John way.

⏹️ ▶️ John Can I complain about the layout again?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I don’t know. I you can because I don’t remember. I took notes on a couple of them and I did change

⏹️ ▶️ John it. I like that they’re not centered line anymore. But you have you have a number then

⏹️ ▶️ John sometimes you have a blue plus or minus thing that I can’t tell if it’s a control or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John Then you have a title then you have author and time. So the time fine whatever author seems to work.

⏹️ ▶️ John The titles are okay a little bit close to votes but I have no idea what’s in the votes column. I a number in the

⏹️ ▶️ John blue. What is the blue plus one sometimes there for? It’s to vote. So this is the Johnny

⏹️ ▶️ John Ive again. I could not tell these were controls, but because you made the text blue, I’m supposed to surmise that this is a button.

⏹️ ▶️ John I suppose I can mouse over and see the hand cursor as well, but that is not obvious to me as a control

⏹️ ▶️ John at all. So you’d rather see like an up arrow or something? I don’t know, something that looks like a control. I mean, that’s the challenge.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like it used to be the way you made something look like a control is you drew a little puffy, fake 3D mound,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, like you drew something was raised or beveled or shaded or seemed to be raised, you

⏹️ ▶️ John know, like you do something to look like you could press it in. And then the iOS seven thing is no, just change the text

⏹️ ▶️ John color. No border needed doesn’t need to be raised doesn’t need to be anything.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s fair. It looks like based on my list, and I’ve not yet looked at Brad show, it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey list laughing at your show bot with you has the most votes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Show about lives is number one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, it’s not sorted. Oh, can

⏹️ ▶️ John we go over the working show bottom sort these titles Oh, man,

⏹️ ▶️ John you gotta have sorting. What good is it if it’s no sorting? The first thing you do is sort by votes.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, the first thing you do is keep them. Yeah, it’s like a speed

⏹️ ▶️ John and correctness and you went for speed.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I went for the thing that doesn’t self-destruct. That’s what I went for.

⏹️ ▶️ John Also, your program can be really fast if it’s not correct and your show about can be up all the time. But if it doesn’t have sort by titles,

⏹️ ▶️ John the first thing that we want to use a show about for it doesn’t help. Anyway, congratulations on its

⏹️ ▶️ John thing up. Like I said, all Zara boogs. I got to go find that for you for the show notes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, oh no, it just died. Oh no.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Really? Yeah. Connecting. Oh, that’s it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It threw an error

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’re so close. I know. Well, no, it still counts.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, it didn’t make it through the whole show. We have we’re not actually able to use the data.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I just stall while I’m doing this. I don’t know what happened. It says basically I tried to do something on a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey socket that apparently was not open. hold on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh my god I’ve had a hell of a week oh what’s going on I’m I’m almost ready to ship

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was gonna say

⏹️ ▶️ John sold to overcast

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wait did you say did you say you’re almost ready to what now ship

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ah okay

⏹️ ▶️ John yeah ship or get off the pot Marco have you started

⏹️ ▶️ John a potty trading yet not you

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco personally but

⏹️ ▶️ John no I’m afraid of that speaking of yeah well it’s one of those things that has to happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I know it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ John schedule it for his 18th birthday.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. Just hope he figures it out on his own. And that

⏹️ ▶️ John tends

⏹️ ▶️ Casey not to work.

⏹️ ▶️ John My experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I think what happened is I think it was a race condition where on actually Jeremy Banks has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey just pulled requests. God, I love open source. Anyway, looking at it, not having seen what he

⏹️ ▶️ Casey said in his poll request, it looks like there was a race condition where Perhaps a socket disconnected,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it hadn’t been removed from my internal list o sockets.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Looking at the show, but that works again. Take your co host to work day is probably is the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco number one that actually would be usable. I think not it isn’t about the show being up at the beginning of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the show. That system is not going to scale. I like that a lot. But was that in reference

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you said it’s a case in reference to his his photo non management technique.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I guess if you never look at your photos any system scales put them in the trash. I mean

⏹️ ▶️ John If you never look at them even one time after you took them why bother even putting them into date to organize photos

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I like the idea that you think you’re gonna remember like the year let alone the month or week

⏹️ ▶️ John that some memorable event happened And then

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you’re gonna go to

⏹️ ▶️ John the you’re gonna go right to that folder and find the picture that you want That is a fantasy scenario of a young person.

⏹️ ▶️ John I bet

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s a lot of people who never look back at their photos

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, they have an easy photo management scheme for them. Right. Beautifully rendered trash can in your dock.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, that’s kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s my strategy. So I have one of these Fujitsu scan snap scanners that everybody bought five

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years ago. Well, I did too. And and so any kind of anything, any paperwork

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I get in the mail, I scan it and then I you know, I deal with it, I scan it and I shred it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I have my I was I was really trying to like make this folder system where I’d organize all right, electric

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bills all go in this folder the gas bill goes in this folder and everything else. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I gave up on that like within a couple of weeks. And since I got this thing, since a few weeks after I got this thing,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco my system has been, I just scan everything into one giant folder and the file names are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just timestamp based, you know, just

⏹️ ▶️ John data. But it does OCR though, like isn’t the whole point that it OCRs them? So you can just type the name of your gas or electric

⏹️ ▶️ John company in the spotlight and find them? It doesn’t OCR them?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It doesn’t by default. And mine is the S510M. It’s a pretty old one. I think I got it in

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like 2007 or something. It’s pretty old and the software it came with

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was very, very slow to OCR and was this whole separate app that would launch and that would quit. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it added too many steps to the process. So I stopped doing that too. Now I just have the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco images and my strategy is they all just get scanned into this one giant folder,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shorted by date. If I ever have to find something, I just go and flip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco through and I flip flip flip with the up arrow key using quick look.

⏹️ ▶️ John Presumably the volume is lower there like the number of photos you take in a year is lower than the number of bills you get in a year

⏹️ ▶️ John and and that is where you’re looking for years because when the IRS comes in on you and you want your stuff in 2013 you want data organized

⏹️ ▶️ John everything from 2013 here you go.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right but I’m saying like it’s it’s a similar kind of thing where like it’s it’s mostly a write only system it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco right it’s right most of the time read very occasionally and so it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh so writes need to be quick and simple and reads don’t need to be that and so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a similar kind of thing like that’s how most people I think you treat their photo library where you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to be able to like just add to it without any effort whatsoever even if that comes at the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco expense of if you want to find some particular one it might take you a few extra minutes because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you haven’t spent hours over the last few years building up this giant system

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of metadata and sorting and organizing well someone

⏹️ ▶️ John said that actually the iOS 8 has a little heart on every picture that you can just tap kind of Instagram style to

⏹️ ▶️ John fave. Right. And I think the next step in that would be, it could be that like,

⏹️ ▶️ John not that I’m saying they have the wrong defaults, but the kind of in the messages where like in, in Iowa, say you have to say that you want to keep them.

⏹️ ▶️ John What if it decided that, uh, if you didn’t pay for iCloud storage, it would slowly delete the ones

⏹️ ▶️ John that you didn’t heart, you know, like your, your pictures. I mean, I don’t think that’s the right thing to do, but like,

⏹️ ▶️ John because so few pictures come out well or ever need to be looked at again,

⏹️ ▶️ John I bet most people’s photo collections could be reduced by like 80% without any sentimental

⏹️ ▶️ John loss because of just the huge volume of garbage pictures that people have in their collections.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s like what they really care about is one or two or three good pictures of their kid at

⏹️ ▶️ John every age that they were or a particularly memorable event, but not the hundreds of pictures that people end up taking,

⏹️ ▶️ John you know, just seven shots of the of the same person within a sec especially with like

⏹️ ▶️ John burst mode stuff on like real cameras i mean i mean real photographers you know have to discard

⏹️ ▶️ John that stuff because they can’t keep all of it forever and they just pick the one or two good ones a lot of the aperture work throw was it was

⏹️ ▶️ John about they used to advertise like oh here’s how you can pick your seven good shots out of the 800 you took right

⏹️ ▶️ John regular people are not that severe but uh that whole idea that you’re going to take a lot of pictures most

⏹️ ▶️ John of them are going to be crap uh put the little hearts in the ones that you like and that’s your tool

⏹️ ▶️ John later for if you want to thin out your set of photos ditch the ones with no hearts

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh yeah I mean just anecdotally like the few times I’ll occasionally be in the mood to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco clean out my photo library and I’ll go back and like I’ll go back like to whatever pictures from like a year

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ago and I’ll find this tremendous folder and I’m like why why did I keep like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 80% of these and I’ll go through and you know it takes like hours to go through like a year worth of photos and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco delete all the crap, the blurry ones, the alternate takes that I ended up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using a different one or that, you know, I took three different photos of the same thing and I picked the best one to use, but I forgot to delete the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other two. And I can cut down a year of photos down by 80 or 90%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco without really losing anything of value just by doing that. But even that, most people don’t even

⏹️ ▶️ Marco do that. I hardly even do that, you know, and I just talked about it. Most people never do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John A great cross-site scripting attack just popped up on Casey’s show bot. Which

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is funny because I literally just pushed the fix to my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John website like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two seconds

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John ago.

⏹️ ▶️ John A little alert just popped up that says, page at says,

⏹️ ▶️ John you should follow me on Twitter at Jeremy Banks. I post rarely, so it won’t hurt your stream much. Okay.

⏹️ ▶️ John Good job, Jeremy Banks. I’m not going to follow you though, because your name wasn’t clickable and it would take too much effort to copy and paste it out of the dialogue.

⏹️ ▶️ John you just hacked Casey’s poor show bot. You’re

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey kicking a bot when it’s down. No, no, no, he gets a bye because… I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey don’t think he hacked it. Well, it was an issue. It wasn’t really a hack, but he gets a bye because he’s been actively

⏹️ ▶️ Casey trying to fix these vulnerabilities rather than just find them and,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John you know, Well, I’m sure,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m assuming he just pasted JavaScript into the titles and then you’ve rendered the JavaScript into the DOM and weee!

⏹️ ▶️ John Off we go. Exactly. Escaping? What’s that?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we got slightly sidetracked. So Overcast, you’re pretty much ready. What’s the holdup?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up? The hold up was, well you know what the hold up was because you’re on the beta, but I basically had

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a pretty sizable feature that I really decided that I wanted to add last minute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I probably, I had something that was almost 1.0 a few days ago and then I realized,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco oh you know what, this feature I was going to delay until, you know, sometime later. I actually really want to have it in 1.0.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I bumped it up and I did that in a few days. So I basically only have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have probably two more betas to ship. I have the next beta which is going to be like the feature complete

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one. And then after that is going to be like the release candidate in old

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Windows parlance. I don’t know. Does anyone else still use like RC1, RC2 or is that only an old Windows thing?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s still a Windows thing as far as I knew, although I don’t really keep up with that very much anymore.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, yeah. So that’s that’s where I am. I’m like the the build before release

⏹️ ▶️ Marco candidate probably going out in the next couple days release candidate probably going out later

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this week and then Then I’ll probably submit

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Next weekend or early the week after that. I don’t know. I’m very very close

⏹️ ▶️ John Did you ever find that bug that someone reported about the UI showing up gray like tint color all gone?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No

⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve been experiencing it lately

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I I should spend more time trying to find workarounds. Yeah, there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bug You’ve probably if you’ve ever used an iOS 7 device You probably run into this at least

⏹️ ▶️ Marco once maybe in mail or some other like standard app that uses a tint color where?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The tint color gets stuck as a gray because what happens is When there’s an alert box

⏹️ ▶️ Marco popped up or something like an alert box any kind of system modal view like that UIKit,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, usefully changes the tint color on the background window to gray.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that way all the controls that have this bright color for their tint color fade

⏹️ ▶️ Marco into gray in the background so they aren’t loud and obnoxious while you’re looking at this alert box

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s in front of them. And then when you cancel that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco box out, then it goes and puts the color back. The problem is it doesn’t always put the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco color back. And under certain conditions that I haven’t quite figured out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco your tint color will get stuck at gray, and not all controls will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco update. Or it’s a mess. And it happens occasionally in Overcast,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it drives me nuts.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it doesn’t recover. Like, if it misses that chance to do it, like, you can just hang out and use a gray UI

⏹️ ▶️ John for a while. Like, it’s not going to. Unless you like, mine, it’s always, you know, waking it up from sleep. So the only way to have

⏹️ ▶️ John a second chance of doing that put it to sleep again go to another app switch back to it see if it’s a you know switch back

⏹️ ▶️ John to orange

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah this it’s driving me nuts and i can’t i can’t figure out what to do about it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i mean because because i want that behavior i want the behavior of digit file radar no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually i don’t think so i have to i don’t think so the ghost of jury will haunt you now it definitely seems

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s a ui kit bug and i could try to work around it but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i’m not willing to do too much of a crazy hack to do that. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one thing I decided early on with Overcast and so far I’ve stuck to it for the most part.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco With Instapaper I would try to use crazy, crazy hacks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to work around limitations or bugs in UIKit. Usually limitations, usually not actual bugs. But

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was so hard to maintain and it wasn’t really worth it. Like I would work around it to achieve like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a certain transition or animation or feature that you weren’t supposed to be able to do in the API,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or to try to mimic built-in Apple behavior in a way that wasn’t publicly exposed.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it just was never worth it. Even some of the big stuff like pagination. Oh my god, pagination was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a pile of hacks. Because until iOS 7, there was no API to paginate a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco web view, so you had to do it manually, and I did it a few different ways. They all were horrible hacks. They all worked,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but they were all horrible hacks. It really, it dramatically complicated the code and it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco took tons and tons of time to write and maintain all that. And at the end of the day,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it wasn’t that big of a deal. It wasn’t that major of a feature. I thought it would be and it really wasn’t. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Overcast early on, I decided I’m just going to avoid most of those things. I’m using a lot of stock

⏹️ ▶️ Marco UI kit with appearance customization, but still I’m not rewriting my own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco navigation control. I’m using the built-in stuff. I’m hardly even doing custom transitions anywhere. In fact,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if I have any custom transitions anywhere. It’s mostly UIKit stuff because,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all, it’s 1.0, and I didn’t want to get too bogged down in all that stuff because it turns out, it turns out,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco podcast apps have a lot of screens and stuff. It’s a lot more than I expected.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is a much larger app than Instapaper. That’s one of the reasons it’s taken me so long. There’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many screens and so much functionality that needs to be built in and considered

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get what I think most people would consider like the bare minimum necessary

⏹️ ▶️ Marco function set of a modern podcast app. And so it’s just tons and tons of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco code and interfaces and screens and designs and strings and localization potential.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I didn’t want to also have this big pile of hacks that would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco make all that more complicated and that would take time that I needed to do all this stuff in a reasonable amount of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time.

⏹️ ▶️ John People asking if I ruined the surprise of your color scheme. You showed the gigantic icon at XOXO

⏹️ ▶️ John like a year ago.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah and it’s also on the Twitter bio and on the web page.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The web page even has the font. I mean yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s pretty obvious by looking at the preview page I have for it on the website

⏹️ ▶️ Marco roughly what the app looks like. No big deal. Anyway so that’s where I am. I’m very close

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I recognize by the way that this is completely ridiculous to rush to ship an app

⏹️ ▶️ Marco now as opposed to waiting for iOS 8. And I’ve thought about this a lot because I’m going to require

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iOS 8 as soon as I possibly can. Pretty much as soon as it’s out I’m going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco require it. The reality is that’s still a few months away probably. We don’t know exactly,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it might be September, it might be October. That’s still a few months out and I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really want to ship before then. I’m already embarrassed that it took this long. I would have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco liked to ship months ago, but oh well I didn’t. Now I have, I’m now at a shippable point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I don’t see much of a reason to wait. You know, I am going to require 8 immediately, which means that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there’s going to be the awkward phase of I’m going to support the iPhone 4

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the old iPod touches for like two months. And then I’m going to cut off support for these people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That sucks, but I don’t think there’s a better way to do that while also taking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco full advantage of what iOS 8 offers. So does that make sense?

⏹️ ▶️ John You’ve got that you just you explained in the in the beta thing how

⏹️ ▶️ John you’re handling that to not disappoint users correct? I don’t want to reveal too much

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco but yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean and I’m gonna I’m gonna anger people anyway. I mean like there’s no question like people are going to be annoyed

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that that I have this app that supports that these devices and then like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco two months later I stopped supporting those devices. You know that is going to annoy people but I’d rather get it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco out there sooner and because right now I haven’t even started iOS 8 stuff yet on it. Like I haven’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco written a single line of iOS 8 code for it. I’m not even using the iOS 8

⏹️ ▶️ Marco SDK to build it. I have the 8 SDK installed on my laptop secondarily,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but on my desktop I’m doing my main development. I don’t even have it installed yet. I haven’t written any Swift

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet. I haven’t written, I haven’t done anything with 8’s new APIs. I haven’t done anything with rotation or the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco size class stuff or you know the stuff that replaces rotation. I’m delaying all of that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco until I ship the iOS 7 version and then after the 7 version ships and is reasonably stable

⏹️ ▶️ Marco then I will start doing the 8 version and And you know and try to prepare in time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for 8 launch which I know I know it’s cutting it close and I might not Make it quite on time, but

⏹️ ▶️ John well you’ll be spending all your time doing the Making all the UI handle different size classes

⏹️ ▶️ John for the bigger iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah I mean that’s totally yeah, cuz that’s I don’t I don’t intend to actually have like an extension or anything

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on on day one of eight Mostly because I’m not really sure what an extension would be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco immediately. There’s obviously I could do like an add to overcast kind of thing, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to do that right and so I’m probably not going to have that on day one. I’m going to ship it soon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the very short version of this very long story that goes nowhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now, whenever you submit, and you can choose not to answer this question,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey but whenever you submit, are you going to hold release for some big marketing push

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or just like a day or two to get your stuff squared away and then let it rip?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m going to set it on hold release. But once it is releasable, I don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think I would really hold it back for much of anything unless like, like if Apple is going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature it, they might ask me to hold it back till Thursday or whatever. But but I don’t know if that’s going to happen

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not. I would guess off the top of my head, probably not, obviously, because most apps don’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get featured on launch, chances are I’m gonna have to release it when I’m ready to. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I wanna do something a little more on the website. I wanna have a marketing page on the site, so I’m gonna have to, while it’s submitted,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m gonna have to write that. And if that’s not done, I might wait until it’s done, but I’m not gonna wait more than a few

⏹️ ▶️ Marco days.

⏹️ ▶️ John Do you need help thinking of three things to put in the standard bootstrap-powered layout of a product marketing page?

⏹️ ▶️ John You know, you gotta have the icon, and then you gotta have three boxes. And it’s like, powerful, simple,

⏹️ ▶️ John orange. That’s my suggestion.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s fantastic. Yeah. Now, I’ve actually I’ve considered marketing from the very beginning and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have in my giant task paper document that I that’s kind of my to-do list and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco forecast for this app. I’ve been considering marketing the whole time. And so I like I’ve

⏹️ ▶️ Marco even I’ve even considered like what features go into 1.0 or don’t go into 1.0 based on how

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they support my overall like strong marketing points. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know and I know I know just talking about marketing for developers is weird and sometimes even taboo but it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco shouldn’t be because it’s kind of stupid not to consider these things and if you can consider these things

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and if you can play to your strengths why not do it. And so I have I’ve been considering that very

⏹️ ▶️ Marco strongly from the very beginning and I’m pretty sure what I’m going to put in these it’s just a matter of doing it and yes this is a bootstrap site

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not sure if I’m going to do that same front page everyone else does but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably going to have boxes with features in them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey And how’s the review?

⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, like, I think now finally I have the outline, like I have it all in my head of what needs to be

⏹️ ▶️ John written. It’s just I need to write, you know, actually not true. I this

⏹️ ▶️ John the swift section, I’m still trying to decide how I’m going to make it not be ridiculous.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m trying to focus on a few things. I have one of the things sort of an idea of what I’m going to write there and the second

⏹️ ▶️ John one I’m just putting off for now. the rest of the stuff I more or

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco less know what I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John gonna write now I’m just thinking about like should I bother taking screenshots should I just wait

⏹️ ▶️ John of course I can’t do a lot of the testing with the handoff stuff or if they’re gonna support the dark UI like they

⏹️ ▶️ John said they were gonna I just need to write I need to plow forward bravely

⏹️ ▶️ John I got through the introduction though so that’s good hey that’s something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is Casey how about that a fast text update for iOS 7

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was really hoping you weren’t gonna ask me that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco am I I’m I’m really going to beat you to shipping. Yeah, you are.

⏹️ ▶️ John He’s putting all his time into the show, Marco. Don’t distract him. Yep.