Unofficial Accidental Tech Podcast transcripts (generated by computer, so expect errors).

31: Swimming In 16 GB Gold

Casey goes to the Apple Store, filesystem FU, iPhone capacities and upgrades, Long Island Lexuses, A7 fabbing, and iOS 7 adoption so far.

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Transcribed using Whisper large_v2 (transcription) + WAV2VEC2_ASR_LARGE_LV60K_960H (alignment) + Pyannote (speaker diaritization).

Transcript start

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hey, how’s the review John?

⏹️ ▶️ John I changed a bunch of stuff in DP8. Had to change a bunch of stuff, make new screenshots.

⏹️ ▶️ John Sorry. I’m sorry. Still

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey no

⏹️ ▶️ John ship date, still no price.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So have you been drinking things other than water lately? Have you like, gotten some soda to get over the angst?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Nope. Maybe a diet Pepsi or something?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John What was your

⏹️ ▶️ John treat drink? Like a Sprite? Diet? Diet, yeah. Sprite is my restaurant drink when I go out. The only time

⏹️ ▶️ John I ever have Sprite is when I go to a restaurant. That’s what I get. If I get anything, sometimes I still get water

⏹️ ▶️ John restaurants, but Sprite is my go-to.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’ve learned the difference between living in Richmond, Virginia,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and living in a major metropolitan area like Boston or New York, because I went

⏹️ ▶️ Casey into the Apple Store to do the easy pay thing, and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I needed to pick up a lightning cable for my parents who were visiting, and they had only one lightning cable

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with them, and it was busted because it was a third-party already won blah, blah, blah. So I went to do the easy

⏹️ ▶️ Casey pay thing. And I ended up just by pure happenstance seeing a friend of mine in there. So I get to talking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the guy. And then one of the Apple employees in a blue shirt kind of does a double

⏹️ ▶️ Casey take and says, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you Casey? And I was like, yes.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John man. You should not have said yes. You don’t know what the correct answer to that question was.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course. Who the hell is Casey?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John There’s the one opportunity to say

⏹️ ▶️ John that in the legitimate

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey context. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my god, I’m so mad at myself, I didn’t even think about it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So anyway, it gets better though because I lose track of this individual because I was talking to my

⏹️ ▶️ Casey friend for a little bit and then all of a sudden, and I don’t know this for sure, but

⏹️ ▶️ Casey all of a sudden two other blue shirts come swooping in from the middle of nowhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Were there people inside of them?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, it was weird. So there were people inside

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the blue shirts. So anyway, so it almost seemed like the first individual

⏹️ ▶️ Casey went into the back room to say, oh my god, guess who’s here? And then the other two came swooping

⏹️ ▶️ Casey out. It was the most flattering and ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s good to live in a smaller town. So John, when you go in with your busted – or is it your

⏹️ ▶️ Casey wife’s busted cinema display or whatever Thunderbolt display that I’m very jealous of and you don’t get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey special treatment.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John treatment. I just don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John want to have to drive back to my house and get my ID that I forgot. Like, that’s it. That’s all. The

⏹️ ▶️ John one time I didn’t, and it wasn’t like it’s not to be flatter my ego. It’s for like practical purposes.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like most of the time I do not want to be recognized. I don’t want to get in, I don’t want to get out. But this one time,

⏹️ ▶️ John just this one time. And yeah, it is depressing that I have literally never

⏹️ ▶️ John been recognized in an Apple store, but that’s okay.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Don’t you know who I am? I’m a professional complainer.

⏹️ ▶️ John I just didn’t want to get back in the car, but you drive out, you make a trip, you know, bring the whole thing, you drive out there, I don’t want to get back

⏹️ ▶️ John in my car and drive back. It’s my fault. I’m the one who forgot my ID. I’m not blaming the staff

⏹️ ▶️ John of the store for it at all, but boy, I just wanted it this one time to save me a car trip and it

⏹️ ▶️ John did not work. So now I will never, ever forget my ID again. I still have to bring the thing back. I almost

⏹️ ▶️ John brought the display back again because I thought my warranty that I had extended was about to run out, but it turns out I have another

⏹️ ▶️ John year, so I’ll continue to let it sit here with a broken camera because I said I better

⏹️ ▶️ John get it in for repairs and get it back in time for my Mavericks review. But now when I learned I had an extra year, I’m just going

⏹️ ▶️ John to wait until the review is done to send it in again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So in summary, Andrew and Scott, I believe were their names. Thanks

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for being nice to me and saying hi. If this actually ends up in the show, which it doesn’t because it’s boring.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I probably will. I think we made it fun enough.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right. So anything happened this week? Oh, no, wait, hold on. We got we got a credload of follow up.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We do? Is it in the document that I’m not looking at?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, it is. Do we want to skip it since we have a busy night or do we want to do it? Let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, we aren’t allowed to do it at the end

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That is true We established that because some moron asked if you could do follow-up at the end and clearly that’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco now is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Can we even entertain this topic? Is this far enough into the show that we can’t do it anymore? Have we crossed the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John follow? No, you

⏹️ ▶️ John can you could still do follow-up at this point

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You are the arbiter

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John of all things

⏹️ ▶️ Casey follow-up. All right. So actually this is mostly your portion of the show John Is

⏹️ ▶️ Casey it not in the sense that you have the most follow-up?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there’s snappy cam stuff that Marco should talk about but since he’s totally unprepared for this then he can’t talk about

⏹️ ▶️ John it

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So wait, what?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, yeah, like so the developer of snappy cam emailed us and gave us a lot of great information

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know how much of it is that relevant to read out on a podcast, but it was basically

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, we are our statements about it being awesomely engineered sound like they were pretty

⏹️ ▶️ Marco accurate accurate. He built quite a system there, and he believes that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco he has not been Sherlocked, and that there is a bright future ahead. And I was wrong, actually, when

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I said I thought 120 FPS was on one of the slides. It turns out 60 FPS is on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one of the slides, and that was referring to the capabilities of the iPhone 5 hardware. So,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco besides that correction… Although now, I believe the NDA is officially up as of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco today, right?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I believe that’s right, which is why we a busy show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So now we can talk about all the stuff that we had been holding back for by the NDA, which actually isn’t

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much stuff, but I’m sure that we will make it big. I mean, we’ve had entire shows

⏹️ ▶️ Marco where we’ve said, Oh yeah, we only have two things to talk about. And then 90 minutes later, we’re just finishing the second

⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Wasn’t that like the last three episodes? Well, not the very last episode neutral, but like the three prior. I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it’s every episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So John, you want to talk about the Synology for a couple minutes?

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we talked a lot about Synology a couple of shows ago, but one topic we didn’t get to at all that a couple of people asked about

⏹️ ▶️ John is my favorite hobby horse, data integrity. And people were asking, so now you’ve got all

⏹️ ▶️ John this storage, aren’t you worried about data integrity and bit rod and all those things?

⏹️ ▶️ John And the answer is yes, I am still worried about that. Because Synology

⏹️ ▶️ John does not currently support ZFS unless you use it as an

⏹️ ▶️ John iSCSI device. Because of course, if you use it as an iSCSI device, it’s just like it’s directly attached storage as far

⏹️ ▶️ John as your computer is concerned. And if your computer supports ZFS then you could format it however you want.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, you know, using a Mac that’s a problem for me because the OS X solutions for ZFS

⏹️ ▶️ John are not great, not particularly stable. Although that was the new OpenZFS

⏹️ ▶️ John project, but that’s really sort of a conglomeration of existing projects. But anyway,

⏹️ ▶️ John the upshot is that Synology runs, I think it’s ext4, You could probably

⏹️ ▶️ John change it to something else if you wanted. Again, if you use it as iSCSI, you can format it as whatever you want.

⏹️ ▶️ John And ext4, to my knowledge, does not have any features like ZFS that do checksumming on

⏹️ ▶️ John all data and metadata, let alone things like duplicating

⏹️ ▶️ John blocks and all that stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s not the one that was written by the murderer, was it? I know.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s riserfs. Oh, yeah, that’s right. Which also doesn’t have data

⏹️ ▶️ John integrity features as far I said, obviously, the guy has no integrity. Yeah.

⏹️ ▶️ John A lot of file systems will do metadata checksumming, but very few

⏹️ ▶️ John of them do complete checksumming of data and metadata. And ZFS’ big thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is that it’s not just checksums of stuff. It’s end-to-end data integrity. So it’s checking everything to making sure

⏹️ ▶️ John your data makes a healthy round trip all the way through your entire storage system, through your drivers, through the

⏹️ ▶️ John network, through all the firmware on the disk, through all the caching, through all the RAID stuff. Whatever things are in the

⏹️ ▶️ John way, ZFS makes sure that your data is making a round trip and it’s safe.

⏹️ ▶️ John So obviously, I would prefer it if it had ZFS on

⏹️ ▶️ John it, but not so much that I’m going to go the iSCSI route, because we’ve just discussed in previous shows that I want to install

⏹️ ▶️ John a kernel extension. I don’t want to pay for a kernel extension. I’d rather use it as network attached storage because

⏹️ ▶️ John there’s more flexibility and the performance has been great and everything. And because even if I did that, then I I would be

⏹️ ▶️ John forced to try to deal with whatever ZFS for OS 10 software is out there and deal with all its bugs

⏹️ ▶️ John and how well it works and everything like that. So I’m not ready for that. The one thing

⏹️ ▶️ John this analogy has going for it over me just having a bunch of external disks is that I have slightly more faith

⏹️ ▶️ John that EXT4 will not corrupt itself in the way that HFS plus routinely does in terms

⏹️ ▶️ John of losing track of which blocks are allocated and how many files are in which directories and all that stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John During the course of normal operation, of course, I don’t have enough experience with the XT4, just say this for a

⏹️ ▶️ John fact, because I’ve used the XT2 extensively. I haven’t used the XT3. Was there even an XT3?

⏹️ ▶️ John Probably was. But this is my first use of the XT4, but I feel confident based on my

⏹️ ▶️ John experience with the XT2 and my vast experience with HMS Plus that at the very least,

⏹️ ▶️ John this is not a bit rod issue, but at the very least, the file system should not corrupt itself to the point where I lose data

⏹️ ▶️ John due to that reason. All the bits that are on there still could be randomly fluffing themselves. My data

⏹️ ▶️ John could be corrupting itself and then duplicating that corruption onto all my other disks and then duplicating that corruption into the cloud. That is all

⏹️ ▶️ John still entirely true. I have not reached the EFS-based nirvana,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I am waiting patiently. I filed a feature request with Synology on their web forum

⏹️ ▶️ John that said, I would like some features that do data integrity checking. I would love it if they could

⏹️ ▶️ John support EFS natively and do all that stuff. And we’ll see if anything ever comes of that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And on the topic of waiting for EFS, I also wanted to point out that I was listening to the debug

⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Guy English and Rene Ritchie. It’s a very good show, you should all be listening to it. And number 20, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco were interviewing Ryan Nielsen. He was formerly a, I believe, product or project

⏹️ ▶️ Marco manager. I don’t know the difference, and I know there’s a big difference, and I don’t know which one he was. Formerly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the OS X team. And he very briefly talked about John Syracuse and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco file systems and ZFS. And you know, X-Half people can’t really say a whole lot,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it sounded like the implication was that it’s never going to happen.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That ZFS support on Mac OS X will never be worth the incredible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco effort required to really do it properly.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, his take, he was clearly on the bad side inside Apple. His take was that

⏹️ ▶️ John like they asked about file systems like what’s the holdup or whatever and he was like, well, you know, HFS plus works okay

⏹️ ▶️ John and changing it is it would be a difficult transition and The advantages

⏹️ ▶️ John of changing it are don’t currently, and the resources it would take to change it, the number of engineers

⏹️ ▶️ John you’d need, the amount of time, how you’d have to deal with customers in the transition phase. That’s a big cost on one side.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s in the con column. On the pro side of the column, he’s like, well, those pros are outweighed

⏹️ ▶️ John by the cons. And he saw that as being the case, I don’t know, in perpetuity, but certainly

⏹️ ▶️ John now. And so I can understand that perspective,

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s a little bit crazy to have that position sort of an absolutist type

⏹️ ▶️ John position, because so many things that Apple has done and will do in the future

⏹️ ▶️ John are completely counter to that philosophy. You could take all the arguments he had against why Apple has not

⏹️ ▶️ John and should not currently switch to a new file system and apply them to, oh, I don’t know,

⏹️ ▶️ John why should we make an entirely new operating system that’s barely backward compatible with the previous one? His entire job and the existence

⏹️ ▶️ John of his entire project on Mac OS X is based on an effort with a tremendous number of cons

⏹️ ▶️ John and the pros that are many years off in the future and potentially only theoretical and may not ever come to pass. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS X itself is the best example of that. It’s just it was a huge undertaking with huge

⏹️ ▶️ John risks. And talk about a transition, like a potentially company-destroying transitional

⏹️ ▶️ John period, but it had to be done. You know, you can’t just keep going with the old thing forever, and that is entirely true of

⏹️ ▶️ John HFS+. OS X.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It’s a little

⏹️ ▶️ Marco bit different, though, The OS X transition had to happen because

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they were in severe pain without it. Their old OS was really, really outdated

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to a point where they were losing a lot because of it. They were losing sales, they were losing people, they were losing developers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They were in terrible shape, so the pain level was high there. In this case, it seems like the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco pain level really isn’t substantial. What do you think would ever motivate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to make a big change like that?

⏹️ ▶️ John the pain level is only smaller in proportion to the size of the feature. So it’s like the entire OS, and then there’s a large

⏹️ ▶️ John pain level to go with it. And then you have something small like the file system. But I think that the file system is in just as bad

⏹️ ▶️ John technical shape as the OS was. It’s just that the file system is only one small part of it in OS,

⏹️ ▶️ John so obviously it’s less important. But if you just look at that particular view, like

⏹️ ▶️ John how big of a portion of the entire experience is the file system, and then how terrible is it, versus how big a part of the entire

⏹️ ▶️ John experience is the operating system, and how terrible is it, probably HFS plus is more terrible in proportion

⏹️ ▶️ John to its importance than Mac OS 9 was. Because Mac OS 9 was terrible, but the OS is like all important. Whereas

⏹️ ▶️ John the file system is only minor importance, but it’s just much more terrible than OS 9 was. I think it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John just, I mean, it could be that, you know, you don’t have to go to ZFS. Like ZFS could

⏹️ ▶️ John say, oh, that’s just an incremental step. This is just another kind of regular file system. Maybe we need to skip something entirely to some sort

⏹️ ▶️ John of, you know, virtualized storage model where everything is memory mapped and it’s all just

⏹️ ▶️ John one big giant open field of RAM from the perspective of your application and everything is solid

⏹️ ▶️ John state behind it. Who knows what they switched to, right? But you need to change to something like you can’t you can’t go with

⏹️ ▶️ John HLS plus forever it’s just it’s just not tenable in the same way that you can’t go with OS 9 forever at a certain point

⏹️ ▶️ John you reach a breaking point. You could say we’re not at that breaking point now but even now I would say as the volumes

⏹️ ▶️ John of data that we deal with go up not having any control over like whether that data is

⏹️ ▶️ John good into the but merely just copying it around and just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best

⏹️ ▶️ John and just saying, occasionally it’ll get corrupted, you might lose some things, whatever. You can’t

⏹️ ▶️ John go on that path forever. And all of their competitors are ahead of them

⏹️ ▶️ John by varying amounts in terms of the file system technology they’re using. So there is a gap there as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John And the other example is like HFS to HFS+. Apple did that transition for a very incremental

⏹️ ▶️ John gain, because they had to, quote unquote, because the block size, They didn’t have enough blocks. You had to make like 32

⏹️ ▶️ John kilobyte minimum block size because hard drives were getting bigger. It was kind of good. They gave them the kick in the pants to do that.

⏹️ ▶️ John But they had the exact same problems. How do you deal with people not being able to read your disks? You try to do an in-place

⏹️ ▶️ John translation of a file system, which was terrible with HFS to HFS+. These are all problems we know

⏹️ ▶️ John about. And maybe Apple will even go through it again with another architecture transition if they ever go to ARM or something.

⏹️ ▶️ John These type of transitions are painful, but they’re also necessary. So I don’t fault someone for

⏹️ ▶️ John saying at various times this came up, we decided that the pros outweighed the cons. But

⏹️ ▶️ John once you say, and it’s never going to be important enough to change, that’s where I part ways and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John no, never is a long time. Something will replace it. And if you don’t plan for something to

⏹️ ▶️ John replace it, if you don’t take an active role in the eventual replacement of every piece of technology you’re dealing with,

⏹️ ▶️ John it will sneak up on you, and you will have problems. So best to plan for it. And to Apple’s credit, I think they have been planning for

⏹️ ▶️ John it. They were looking at ZFS. They went so far as to put it up on web pages on their website

⏹️ ▶️ John to say it’s coming. Didn’t work out for reasons beyond their control, legal issues, blah, blah, blah,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe even technical issues. Who knows? That’s fine. But that’s not an excuse to say, well, we’re never going to look at file systems

⏹️ ▶️ John again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, you really do just love any excuse to talk about file systems, don’t you?

⏹️ ▶️ John I do. If I was on that podcast, I like everything he said. But when he said, you know, it’s never going to

⏹️ ▶️ John be important enough. Never? No. I don’t even know if he said never. The implication was that

⏹️ ▶️ John the time has come and gone for that, but it’s just like HFS Plus forever. It’s not HFS Plus forever.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s going to have to change. And if Apple doesn’t take a role in changing it, they’ll find themselves in another

⏹️ ▶️ John crisis situation.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would love if you were on that show with, you know, with him at that moment. I mean, the show already,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the conversation was so long, they had to split it into two episodes. I would imagine what, you know, if you went on there, it would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have been at least three or four.

⏹️ ▶️ John This is the only thing I had to quibble with. Everything else I loved hearing about all the details. I loved everything I said comparing the

⏹️ ▶️ John The cultures between Microsoft and Apple in terms of their development systems and everything. It’s all great

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right So to keep moving along because we do have a lot to talk about Another piece of quick follow-up and I think the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey last piece about the Synology I’d asked Marco what it was like using the Synology

⏹️ ▶️ Casey for photograph storage as a photographer because I know a couple friends have asked me about it

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and Mark Gibal, I don’t know if I butchered that I probably did. I’m sorry Mark But anyway, he said,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I used Lightroom with the library residing on a Synology for a few years, and it works just great. At first, I was even connected

⏹️ ▶️ Casey to it through Wi-Fi, just a little too slow to be fun. So I finally drilled a hole through the wall to connect with an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey ethernet cable. But FYI, according to Mark, it works great. And that’s all

⏹️ ▶️ Casey the follow-up I had.

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, one more brief thing on the Synology with the ZFS bit. This is yet another

⏹️ ▶️ John reason why you might want to build your own ZFS FreeBSD, whatever,

⏹️ ▶️ John build your own NAS. all the people who build their own NASes and who are willing to sink the time into that

⏹️ ▶️ John to get it done, in exchange for their time and possibly their sanity, they

⏹️ ▶️ John will end up with a solution that has data integrity. And you can’t get that if you

⏹️ ▶️ John buy a Synology. Another plus one in the column of building your own thing. Although,

⏹️ ▶️ John as the person who sent in this email about one of the emails about this topic said,

⏹️ ▶️ John taking that route, trying to build your own NAS is kind of a time vampire. And I think that’s a good description

⏹️ ▶️ John of it.

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⏹️ ▶️ John Why doesn’t everybody do that? The no credit card with free trials? That was like a business

⏹️ ▶️ John innovation back when Squarespace started doing it. But at this point, why doesn’t everybody do that?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Obviously… Well, because at some point, everyone knows… The same reason why don’t they just drop the price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of doing mail-in rebates? Because they know that some percentage of people are going to forget,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they’ll make a little bit more money. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John why companies do that. It seems like an

⏹️ ▶️ John anti-pattern, though. I understand the concept of, like, oh, I’ll forget that it’s there, and I’ll get charged. But you hate companies

⏹️ ▶️ John that do that. And it seems like this would have come around by now that people would be like, we don’t want people to hate us. Some companies

⏹️ ▶️ John do want you to hate them. I understand why scummy companies do it, because that’s their business model, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Even getting up to PayPal or Facebook, they kind of want you to hate them. So they’ll do the scummy things, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John But for these sort of dot-com-y startup, kind of cool, trendy companies that appeal to nerds,

⏹️ ▶️ John anybody with advertisers, everyone should copy Squarespace’s free trial with no credit card. Because there’s nothing worse

⏹️ ▶️ John than when I go to sign up for something and try it out and they want a credit card. It’s just like,

⏹️ ▶️ John most of the time, I turn back. So why would you know, you’re just turning customer waste. Everyone should copy

⏹️ ▶️ John Squarespace. That’s free advice for all people who are listening to the show.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh yeah, I mean, even before they were a sponsor, when I was building the site for Neutral, which they actually ended

⏹️ ▶️ Marco up sponsoring the entire show, but when I was building the site for that, I was looking around, and I’d heard about Squarespace and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco other podcasts and everything, and the no credit card trial is actually the biggest reason

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think why I signed up, because you’re right, I’m the same way. If I see something that’s like, oh, free trial, just create an entire

⏹️ ▶️ Marco big account, give us all your personal information, give us your phone number, give us your mother’s maiden name, us your entire credit card number and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything and if you don’t cancel we’re gonna charge you a hundred dollars in a week and it’s like yeah

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John that’s and

⏹️ ▶️ John then you assume you have to like talk to some like either call someone on the phone

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco or do some sort of

⏹️ ▶️ John online chat to cancel the service like i had to deal

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco with

⏹️ ▶️ John adobe adobe support recently and they love making you talk to those people in the chat it’s just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah i had to do i canceled my gogo uh wi-fi in the plane plan because like last time

⏹️ ▶️ Marco i flew somewhere i was like you could pay uh you know some some amount for the flight

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or you could pay less than double that for a whole month. I think, well, I’m gonna fly here. I’m gonna fly back.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Let me do that. I’ll sign up for their stupid plan and then cancel when I get home. And yeah, I had to like talk to the online

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chat bot, which they’re not technically a bot, I don’t think, but they might as well be. And it was a whole

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ordeal. I gotta convince them. They try to upsell you. Oh, well, you can keep you on this plan. And are you sure you want to cancel?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And all this stuff. Terrible.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although pro tip, if you buy from GoGo before you get on the plane it is a few dollars cheaper I believe.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know I’ve heard that but I never remember to do it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Then you can fail to get a usable connection for less money.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s true and the other problem is too like I don’t a lot of times I don’t know if I’m gonna actually have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that available like if the plane might have like there one flight I took it was either

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Virgin or JetBlue where they usually have the Wi-Fi but like on one flight it was just down

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it just broke and they are like oh sorry we don’t have it this flight and so if I I would have bought in advance, then I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco would have had to go back to that same chat bot person and say, oh, sorry, I need a refund. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’ll do it, but it’s a pain in the butt to do all that.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or you just hold on to that code for the next flight. I’m with you. So to keep things moving,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, at the end of the last episode, after the episode, you got a little upset about something. Do you

⏹️ ▶️ Casey want to explore that a little bit?

⏹️ ▶️ John Didn’t we already do that? I thought Marco put that all in the episode.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I put just a reference. It was a pointer. It was a 64-bit long pointer.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It was a pointer to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this so that you can you can discuss the storage capacity issue Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John how do you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel about the storage capacities in the new iPhone?

⏹️ ▶️ John I feel bad about it everyone should feel bad about it because this is a bad situation no storage shift

⏹️ ▶️ John So what I’m talking about here is that like Apple offers three sizes in terms of flash storage

⏹️ ▶️ John on its iOS devices the low-end one has 16 the middle one has 32 and the big one has 64 and

⏹️ ▶️ John And in typical Apple fashion, I have to find some way to put most of their margins. They put a lot

⏹️ ▶️ John of it into the storage capacity, because the 64 costs $100 more than the 32, and I think the 32 costs $100 more than the 16.

⏹️ ▶️ John And for anyone who knows anything about pricing a flash memory, those

⏹️ ▶️ John numbers do not reflect the cost of goods in any rational way. This extra 16 gigabytes

⏹️ ▶️ John of flash does not cost $100 in any universe. So that’s

⏹️ ▶️ John fine. Whatever. That’s how they segment their stuff. But for years and years, I’ve been buying the middle model,

⏹️ ▶️ John 32 gigabytes. And I think the very first one I ever bought was 32. Maybe that was the high

⏹️ ▶️ John end at that point. I forget. And that’s kind of like barely enough to hold all my stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John But as the years pass, I would expect that they would shift just as they did once before.

⏹️ ▶️ John Because there used to be an 8 gigabyte model, I think, on one of the phones. There used to be a 4. Yeah, I mean,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t remember how small they were with the original iPhone, because I wasn’t buying

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco original iPhones. It

⏹️ ▶️ John was 4 and 8. I was just buying iPods. Yeah. They have to shift the line. So then the 16 goes away, the 32

⏹️ ▶️ John becomes the smallest one, the 64 is the middle one, and then a 128 is the highest. Or whatever sizes you want. Doesn’t have to be

⏹️ ▶️ John doubling or whatever. It could be 16, 32, and no, 32, 50. I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ John Make up any numbers you want. I just want to see the storage shift. And on the Mac line, they’ve done the same thing. It used to be that Macs came

⏹️ ▶️ John with whatever minimum amount of RAM it was going to be. 1 megabyte, 2

⏹️ ▶️ John megabytes, 1 gigabyte, 2 gigabytes, 4 gigabytes. And on the Macs, it was terrible for years

⏹️ ▶️ John because they would give you so little RAM, especially with Mac OS X. They were like, OK, well, Mac OS X will boot on a system with two gigs of RAM.

⏹️ ▶️ John And coincidentally, that is the minimum configuration of whatever Mac you wanted to buy. And I would just beg

⏹️ ▶️ John people if they were buying a Mac, do not buy it with a default amount of RAM, because Mac OS X with the minimum

⏹️ ▶️ John supported amount of RAM was terrible. It would just thrash the disk all the time, especially in the early versions. And the disks

⏹️ ▶️ John were really slow. It’s like, buy more RAM and don’t buy it from Apple because they gouge you on it, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, so here we are. know what I didn’t look this up on Wikipedia but what year are we in of the 1632 64 it

⏹️ ▶️ John seems like we’re in like the third year in a row is it the fourth year in a row whatever it is it’s way too

⏹️ ▶️ John long and I was hoping that this would be the year where they would do a storage shift and move everything down the line but they

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t 64 is still the top of the line 32 is still the middle and so once

⏹️ ▶️ John again like my wife is probably gonna get a new iPhone we’ll talk about that later in the show maybe she’s gonna

⏹️ ▶️ John end up getting a 32 because 64 is Obscenely expensive an extra hundred dollars

⏹️ ▶️ John over the extra hundred already paying over the 16 16 is too small so he’s gonna end up with 32 again and This

⏹️ ▶️ John is another thing that Apple should really move on with I mean at the very least in the iPhone 6 This

⏹️ ▶️ John is now my number one feature for the iPhone 6 next year They’d better do a storage shift because you can’t just keep selling 16 32

⏹️ ▶️ John and 64 forever It’s kind of like HFS plus at a certain point. It just becomes embarrassing

⏹️ ▶️ John like you have you have to change You know, maybe they won’t even be able to get 16 megabytes of flash 16

⏹️ ▶️ John gigabytes of flash anymore because no one will sell flash That’s small in a few years because the cereal boxes will come with 16

⏹️ ▶️ John gigabytes of flash inside them

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, I can tell you that my 4s is 64 gig and I don’t think the 4

⏹️ ▶️ Casey had that as an option But I’m not a hundred percent

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco sure.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I believe that’s correct.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So it’s at least been what is that 4s 5 and 5s? That’s three years now.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I I mean, you’re right. It’s a long time.

⏹️ ▶️ John It’s too long. I think one year is too long, because from year to year, prices go down. So one

⏹️ ▶️ John year is probably too long. But OK, fine, you’re Apple. You want to bring every last penny you can out of these things, so

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe hold on for two years. But three years, no, that’s way too long. Now I say no. They have to shift.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they also did add a 128-gig iPad, I believe, last year. It was not with the iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch. It was a few months later, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Yeah, but they

⏹️ ▶️ John didn’t shift it, though. That was just a

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco new super

⏹️ ▶️ Marco high-end. Right for like another hundred bucks. I think yeah another

⏹️ ▶️ John Every storage room up is another hundred dollars if they add one gigabyte It would be like well We have a 64 gigabyte model

⏹️ ▶️ John and then a 65 gigabyte model for $100 more like no matter how how little they add It’s always $100

⏹️ ▶️ John like don’t make we have to change the storage at all. It’s 100 bucks Yeah, and especially

⏹️ ▶️ John now like like the cameras are just getting better and shooting 120 frame per second 720p

⏹️ ▶️ John video and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco burst mode is

⏹️ ▶️ John crazy right like seriously like you’re giving us new ways and you know iTunes match and

⏹️ ▶️ John the cloud say like all these new ways to get tremendous amounts of data retina graphics

⏹️ ▶️ John and all our games and everything on to our iPods and yet the storage doesn’t change it’s just pressing people

⏹️ ▶️ John up against the limits of their iOS device storage and as we talked about in last shows dealing with storage and

⏹️ ▶️ John iOS and backups and photo stream and all that stuff is already a pain they’re just applying

⏹️ ▶️ John more pressure to the problem by keeping the storage capacity is low, especially when

⏹️ ▶️ John like the people who are price conscious, they’re getting 16s and they’re not knowing like maybe 16 will

⏹️ ▶️ John be fine with them, but if they have any pension for video, 16 will not be fine and they’ll be sad and that’s a bad

⏹️ ▶️ John experience for customers. They’re like, well, you got the 16 because it was the cheapest, but now you’re having a lousy

⏹️ ▶️ John experience.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, well, I mean, I think iTunes Match is actually designed to help with this because the principle goes that you can just stream

⏹️ ▶️ Casey or download on the fly whatever you want to listen to, but in general you’re completely right. And Erin

⏹️ ▶️ Casey has a 16 gig 4S and we haven’t talked much about what we’re going to do come

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Friday and I think all three of us should talk about this, but I suspect I’m going to get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey her a 32 just to future proof. And even though strictly speaking I don’t think I need a 64, I

⏹️ ▶️ Casey might do it just because I don’t want to regret it later. So with that in mind,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey let’s talk about what we’re getting and how we’re getting it. So obviously I just told you I think Erin’s gonna get

⏹️ ▶️ Casey a 32 although I haven’t completely concluded and obviously she is she has

⏹️ ▶️ Casey input on this but generally speaking when it comes to things like this she just says whatever you think is best and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m gonna be probably getting a 64 both space gray both 5s’s my plan

⏹️ ▶️ Casey currently and we’ll see what I end up doing is to wake up at 3 Eastern

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and that’s when they go on sale, attempt to buy the two phones from Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Casey online, cry as I usually do when it doesn’t work as it usually doesn’t, and then

⏹️ ▶️ Casey potentially go back to that Apple store at 3 in the morning and get in line. I’m curious to hear

⏹️ ▶️ Casey what the two of you are gonna be doing, especially you John, since you said that Tina might be getting a new one, but let’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey start with Marco.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, so I’m gonna try to get My

⏹️ ▶️ Marco flaw though in my usual plan of usually if it’s a pre-order, yeah, I’ll wake up

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at 3 in the morning and try it, but I’m not as willing to do that. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco as willing to get up and wait on line in front of a store forever Usually I’ll just go and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get on the line like, you know 20 minutes before the store opens You know something not like six

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours ahead of time Just get wherever the line is get online 20 minutes for the store opens and I’ve always got I’ve always been able to get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco one It’s never been a problem. I’ve never not gotten what I wanted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now hold on. Now is that at the Fifth Avenue store or is that at various different stores?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was mostly at the Fifth Avenue. The last one I did

⏹️ ▶️ Marco here in Westchester at the mall. But yeah, I’ve done the Fifth

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Avenue store before and I got the original iPad at one of the other

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Manhattan stores, the one that’s around 14th Street, wherever that one is.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, you know, I’ve never had, my theory’s always been, and I believe

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this will hold true now, you know, we’ve heard a lot that the 5S might be supply constrained

⏹️ ▶️ Marco because of some of these really advanced components it has. That will probably be true, but that’s true

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of almost every new iPhone that comes out. I think the 5C is the exception this year, where the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 5C is helping to kind of dampen some of the demand for the 5S,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s easy to make, because they have all these components from the file they’ve been making for a year.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco But normally, your best bet, everybody, every single iPhone and iPad

⏹️ ▶️ Marco release, especially iPhones, everybody is always like, oh, I know this one little Verizon

⏹️ ▶️ Marco store that no one knows about. I’m gonna go there. They have this plan. They’re gonna go to this little obscure

⏹️ ▶️ Marco carrier store that they know about, or a Best Buy where they know somebody who works there, or something like that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco something that’s not an Apple store. And the problem is, yeah, nobody knows about those, nobody goes there,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but Apple doesn’t usually send them any stock either, or they’ll get like one or two units. So the chances that you’re going to

⏹️ ▶️ Marco get one there are pretty low. Whereas if you go to one of Apple’s flagship stores, the chances you’re going

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get one are pretty good. That’s why I would always go to the Fifth Avenue store, because I knew if anyone’s going to have a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of stock, it’s the Fifth Avenue store.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and more than that, what if you go to this random AT&T or Verizon store and they get 164

⏹️ ▶️ Casey gold and 116 gig white and you really wanted

⏹️ ▶️ Casey space gray. Now what?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Now

⏹️ ▶️ Casey you’re not so smart anymore are you guy?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco So

⏹️ ▶️ Casey yeah I completely hear you. And the problem that I’m running into with us is that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you may not know the geography of Virginia but suffice to say most of the population

⏹️ ▶️ Casey is in the greater DC area which is way in northern Virginia. Which part is the south?

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would – we’re getting into a nuanced

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco conversation now. I would say – All of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, not all of it.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Please email John.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I spent some time in DC and it’s not quite the south. But anyway, the point is there’s

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Virginia Beach which is way on obviously the coast. There’s DC. There’s Richmond

⏹️ ▶️ Casey and then there’s not a lot of civilization outside of that. Even Charlottesville which is a

⏹️ ▶️ Casey reasonably large city an hour west of us, they don’t have an Apple store yet. So for like

⏹️ ▶️ Casey two-thirds of the state of Virginia, you could pose a legitimate argument that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my Apple Store is the nearest Apple Store. So I’m really worried that if I don’t get online at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey like three in the morning, there’s zero chance that I’m going to get one. We’ll see what happens.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The number of people that get on the line relative

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the time until the opening of the store accelerates a lot as that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time approaches. So it’s similar to the WBDC keynote lines, where you

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can get online at midnight the night before, but you could also just go at 7 in the morning and be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco not that far back. Like not that different from if you went at midnight the night before.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s why I’ve always just gone like a half hour to an hour before they open. In fact, the iPad 1

⏹️ ▶️ Marco launch, I was late and I got there like 15 minutes after they opened the doors, and I still got one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Apple stocks their stores a lot, especially if you’re in a major city. I don’t think you’re going to have any problems.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say if you’re anywhere that Apple has Apple stores, I don’t think you’re going to have any major problems. There was one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco time when the iPad 3 came out, I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was forced to either not get one or get a 64 gig when I was looking for a 32.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I chose to just screw it. I’m already here. I waited on line. I’ll get the 64. That does

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happen where, especially with the iPad where you have so many models, I guess now the iPhone is going to be the same way. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco so many models, so you have to be prepared that if

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you want the 16GB black one, you might have some problems if you get

⏹️ ▶️ Marco there late. But the reason why I go through all this on day one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is because historically with these things, with iPhones and iPad releases, generally speaking, Apple

⏹️ ▶️ Marco has been producing these for a while. They produce as much as they can for launch weekend.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That way they can not only get a bunch of them in people’s hands and get a bunch of buzz, but then they can announce these big numbers saying, on launch

⏹️ ▶️ Marco weekend we sold millions and millions of phones. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco meanwhile though, after launch weekend, that whole stock is then blown out and they got to then trickle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco them in as they’re made after that. So you generally have a much better chance of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting one on launch day than you do for the next two weeks. way way

⏹️ ▶️ Marco easier to get one on day one than it is to get one on day two, three, four, or five. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s why I’m actually flying to go to a conference. I have to leave for

⏹️ ▶️ Marco the airport at like 1 p.m. and that’s I’m actually gonna go to my mall

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the Apple Store, try to get there for the 8 a.m. opening and maybe a little bit before,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and see if I can get a phone, get out of there by like 11 in the morning. Which I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco might. I don’t know. Like there’s a good possibility I might have to just, you know, I’ll be standing online

⏹️ ▶️ Marco near the front at 11 and I might have say, sorry, I got to bail out. I’m out of time. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey we’ll see.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’ve thought about waking up at three to try the online ordering, but. I don’t have any faith that would

⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually work. Um,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey so I don’t know.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t either. I suspect I’m going to have to get in the car.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And if I’m waking up, if I’m waking up at like, you know, six to go to the store

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and get online. Also waking up at 3 would not be great for my

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mood that day. But I do plan to get… Tiff and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I are both upgrading this year. I do plan to get the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 64 gig black which is now space gray which I I

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have expressed my so far my like for that color and my dislike for the previous slate

⏹️ ▶️ Marco black that the iPhone 5 had. So I’m going to get the black 64 AT&T. Tiff is getting the

⏹️ ▶️ Marco white 64 AT&T. We both treat ourselves to 64s on iPhones but not on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPads because we use the iPhones way more and we actually do take tons of photos and videos.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we have space issues on the smaller devices. And

⏹️ ▶️ Marco AT&T simply because Verizon does not work in our house.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey We’re sticking with AT&T as well. We went AT&T from Verizon when I got my iPhone, which which was

⏹️ ▶️ Casey my first iPhone, which was a 3GS. And to be honest, we don’t really have any issues with it. So we’re sticking

⏹️ ▶️ Casey with it as well. And I should point out that a friend of the show, Jason Snell, said in the chat,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey China’s getting it the same day that we are this year. So perhaps some

⏹️ ▶️ Casey of that gray market stuff. So the bad news is they’re going to get a lot of stock.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the good news is you won’t have a bunch of gray market buyers competing for the stock that you and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I are going to want, if that makes any sense at

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco all. Oh

⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah, that’s actually a good point.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Well, not from China,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but what about other countries that aren’t getting it on day one? I mean, China was always a big one, but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think we’re still gonna see a lot of people who are looking to scalp them.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, we’ll see what happens. So anyway, I’m sorry. So John, we haven’t given you a chance. So tell me about what’s going on in the Syracuse

⏹️ ▶️ Casey household.

⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, the first thing, thinking of you two, waking up at three in the morning or going to the store when it opens and getting

⏹️ ▶️ John in line, the interesting thing that I wanna know on launch day is for the poor suckers at the end of the line,

⏹️ ▶️ John which may, when they run out of stock or when the stock started to get low, what do those people

⏹️ ▶️ John hear? Because I remember back in the iPhone 4 days, what all those people heard is,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sorry, all you’ve got left is white 64 gigs. Remember that? The white 64 gigs were like, those

⏹️ ▶️ John were the last ones to go. And we don’t know if it’s because of the ratios, they predicted it or whatever, but across the entire country it

⏹️ ▶️ John was like, what’s left? White was the unpopular color, and it’s always like the super expensive whites. Or maybe it’s like white

⏹️ ▶️ John 16s and white 64s, the white 32s go. So that’s what I’m most

⏹️ ▶️ John interested in, because we don’t get breakdowns by color or capacity or anything interesting

⏹️ ▶️ John from Apple. But we get our own little research by everyone going to the Apple stores on launch days,

⏹️ ▶️ John waiting in lines. And if the lines are long enough in the very popular stores, the people at the ends of those lines start

⏹️ ▶️ John to have to make those hard choices, like Marco had to get a 64, because that’s all they had left. What are the undesirables?

⏹️ ▶️ John Is there one color that every store has a bunch of golds left, or every store has a bunch of whites left? Is there one capacity?

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s that’s what I’m watching for on launch day. And that’s all I’m going to be doing on launch day because I’m not waiting online. I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John ordering anything on the Internet. I’m not doing anything on lunch day for myself

⏹️ ▶️ John or for my wife, because neither one of us is going to get up at three in the morning to get a phone or anything like that.

⏹️ ▶️ John We’re probably just going to wait until like stocks go back up. Like

⏹️ ▶️ John we wait a month. Maybe we have to wait until the new year. Any of those things is fine as far as I’m concerned, because I’m

⏹️ ▶️ John not getting anything. And my wife is planning on getting a new 5S.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know what color she wants. She has said that she likes the gold.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know. She may have been shamed by the internet into not

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco getting a gold. I don’t know. We’ll see what

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happens. People like it. By the way, how funny is it that Groomer’s Review units were a pink 5C and a gold 5S? That

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is fantastic.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John nothing funny about pink. And people say they make fun of pink as if it’s a color that he shouldn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John have. It’s perfectly fine. fine. I think the pink is not particularly attractive because it’s kind of more of like a

⏹️ ▶️ John dirty, chalky, like Pepto-Bismol pink. But if you like that color, it’s fine. I don’t think there’s any

⏹️ ▶️ John reason to make fun of it. The gold, on the other hand, I do find something funny about.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, we didn’t talk about this when the old gold shows, but I finally put my finger on, well, I don’t know if I put my finger

⏹️ ▶️ John on, I just found a connection with why don’t I like the gold one, having not seen it in person. And the thing

⏹️ ▶️ John that it gives me bad flashbacks to is back when the Lexus first came out with the LS 400. This

⏹️ ▶️ John always turns into neutral. Sorry, guys. It was Toyota’s luxury brand. And around then, all the

⏹️ ▶️ John Japanese makers were making their luxury brands. Nissan had Infiniti. Toyota had Lexus. And Mazda

⏹️ ▶️ John was going to have a Mati, but didn’t. Anyway, Lexus, their cars came out and wanted to make them

⏹️ ▶️ John look fancy. So they tried to make them look a lot like Mercedes S-Class. But one thing Lexus offered

⏹️ ▶️ John on, I think it was like all of its initial run of models, or maybe this wasn’t even a factory thing.

⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe it was a dealer-installed thing, you could get the car with gold

⏹️ ▶️ John trim on it.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco So instead of on the back,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would say LS 400 in the fake silver plastic letters, like every car says in the back of it,

⏹️ ▶️ John you could get all that stuff in gold. The little tiny accent lines around the window. Besides,

⏹️ ▶️ John on Long Island, this gold trim was very popular. And it was the tackiest thing in the entire

⏹️ ▶️ John universe. And I just could not stand it. And I couldn’t imagine anybody. Because otherwise, the cars look fairly distinguished

⏹️ ▶️ John and nice looking. And it wasn’t a lot of gold. It was just a little bit of gold. But

⏹️ ▶️ John all the accents were gold, and it looked terrible to me. And that’s all I can think of when I see pictures of the gold iPhone,

⏹️ ▶️ John that it’s just like, you could have got a regular iPhone, and you just opted for the gold trim, and

⏹️ ▶️ John it just makes the whole thing tacky. Again, I say this not having seen one in person.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what you’ve just done is you’ve told me that there’s an arrow in the FedEx logo in the negative space. And

⏹️ ▶️ Casey now I’ll never be able to not think of the LS400 when I see a gold iPhone.

⏹️ ▶️ John I think they did it for the S300 as well. It’s just and again, I don’t even know if this was a factory option or just like

⏹️ ▶️ John a dealer installed option for Long Island Because like many things on Long Island are tacky and this fitted right in with them

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco and I saw those two

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They were everywhere.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yeah All right before you tell me about something awesome so John

⏹️ ▶️ Casey so I thought your wife already had a five no

⏹️ ▶️ John No, she’s a 4s. She Broke down and got her an iPhone 4s was the best one you could

⏹️ ▶️ John get this what she got But she keeps trying to want to trade in her 4S. She’s like, oh,

⏹️ ▶️ John Verizon will give me $200 for my 4S. I can practically get a free 5S. And Gazelle will

⏹️ ▶️ John give me this bunch and all these things. I’m like, no, you can’t sell it. It has to, we have to keep it.

⏹️ ▶️ John Goes into the museum. And it’s mostly because I really like that form factor, as I mentioned in the

⏹️ ▶️ John last show. I really like how that thing looks as an object, not so much as a phone that I hold in my

⏹️ ▶️ John hand, but as an object, I really like it. I even like the bumper that she’s got on it. So we’re definitely keeping that one.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I want to add also, Stephen Hackett, our friend in the chat, pointed out a little bit ago

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, before we move on, that Apple’s been doing this thing with the last couple of releases where if you wait

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the lines in front of the stores, they go around and they pass out little cards. They ask you what you’re waiting for,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco how many, what model, and they give you a card to represent that model. And I think the implication

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that they have the right number of cards that represent their stock so that they can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they can then tell you like okay just bring this ticket to the front and we still have enough that you’ll get one

⏹️ ▶️ Marco consequently if you’re too far back in the line they will be able to tell everybody like after this point sorry we’re not gonna

⏹️ ▶️ Marco have any more for you like by the time you get there they’ll be gone which is nice actually because then you won’t be waiting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco online for hours um you know for something that they that you end up that you’ll end up not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco getting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John yeah so then

⏹️ ▶️ John early in the morning you’ll know okay guys at the back of the line what we’ve we’ve got left are 16 gigabyte white

⏹️ ▶️ John 5S’s, and whatever the unpopular ones are. And then you just have to watch the people at the back of the line squirm and go,

⏹️ ▶️ John oh, do I buy it? Do I really want to have a phone today? Or do I want to come back? And by the way, for the

⏹️ ▶️ John people making those choices, unless you are like Marco, about to get on a plane and you need to have this phone,

⏹️ ▶️ John come back a different day. Because you’ll have to live with your choice, unless they’re urging you to get the bigger model. Because

⏹️ ▶️ John if they’re urging you to get the bigger model and you can actually afford it, that’s fine. But if you find

⏹️ ▶️ John yourself getting a 16 or a color that you don’t want, you will suffer through that, either by looking at an ugly

⏹️ ▶️ John phone that makes you sad, or by not being able to fit your stuff in for your two-year contract

⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever you have. So

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco stay strong.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If for whatever reason I was forced to choose, I would choose gold before I choose 16 gigs. That’s

⏹️ ▶️ John strong language there, but you should choose neither.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I can

⏹️ ▶️ Marco at least put a case on it or send it to one of those anodizing services or something.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Yeah, that’s true.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 16 gigs, you suffer every day. Like every time you take a picture to download a podcast, you suffer.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, I should point out that someone is either your wife, John, or masquerading as your wife in the

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chat, trying to enlist the chat room to argue with you about how you’re running out of space in the museum.

⏹️ ▶️ John The iPhone 4S is tiny.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s what I said. But still, I do find it awesome.

⏹️ ▶️ John The 5 is thinner. It’s not big. And by the way, like people, I’m surprised no one complained that like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I just spent a while complaining that it’s $100 to move up to the next storage size. And yet I’m willing to forego $200

⏹️ ▶️ John simply to keep an old phone. It’s the principle

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that matter.

⏹️ ▶️ John No, it’s just that’s how my priorities work out. What’s more important? You know what I mean? Like,

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to pay the extra $100 for the 64. And by not paying

⏹️ ▶️ John an extra $100 for the 64 over the course of many years allows me to afford to keep my $200 resale value phone

⏹️ ▶️ John in my museum.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, really quick. So you’re not going to take your wife’s old 4S and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey put it on some sort of plan that you’re gonna use it?

⏹️ ▶️ John No, you can’t go back to that screen after using the iPhone 5 size screen in my touch.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Plus the thing is like

⏹️ ▶️ John twice as thick. Yeah, you can’t go back to that. This screen is just, this screen is nicer than her screen. In all

⏹️ ▶️ John ways, I can’t go back.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. All right, Marco, after long delay, would you tell me about something else that’s awesome?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Absolutely. This week we are happy to welcome back another repeat sponsor, MailRoute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I talked to them on the phone today and they said route, not root. So that answered my question from

⏹️ ▶️ Marco last week. MailRoute is a hosted service that filters out viruses

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and spam from email in a really advanced way and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco let me start from the beginning here. Email hosting sucks. It just really sucks

⏹️ ▶️ Marco trying to run your own email host and there have been all these things like you know Google,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Gmail, and Microsoft whatever their thing is called and you know the thing not just Outlook

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but is Is it live? And there’s 365 something or other. Anyway, everyone has these hosted

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mail services. Now, the problem we’re having as recently as all the NSA stuff,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco but even before that, is that a lot of people, geeks like us included, are not that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco happy with the idea of other people hosting our email anymore, or at least these big services that are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ad-driven and big enough that the NSA would have a deal with them and stuff like that. So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of people are moving to hosting their own email. I’ve always been a big fan of hosting my own email. I mean, not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running the IMAP server myself, you know, I use FastMail for the host, but not using one of the big

⏹️ ▶️ Marco webmail providers. So, one of the biggest flaws with hosting your own email

⏹️ ▶️ Marco or using one of these places like FastMail is that their spam filtering

⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not nearly as good as somebody like Gmail. And if you’re running your own server,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re gonna get a ridiculous amount of spam that you’ll have to process and deal with. This is especially relevant

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for people who run, say, small companies or IT departments where you’re hosting mail for a lot of people.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco MailRoute is a service that you basically route your mail DNS records through them

⏹️ ▶️ Marco first. They act as an intermediary in front of your mail servers and they filter out all the crap before it gets to you.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So not only do you have amazing spam filtering from your own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco inbox that you won’t be bothered seeing all these messages, but your servers won’t be dealing with them. So that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco means so much. It means if you’re using a hosted service you’ll save a lot of space because a lot of those messages

⏹️ ▶️ Marco won’t be sitting there in your junk mail folder or your archive sitting there taking up all that space. If you’re hosting your own

⏹️ ▶️ Marco servers, you can probably do with a lot less of them. They told me one story where one of their customers

⏹️ ▶️ Marco had 11 mail servers that were running like full tilt, just really heavy load, 11 servers.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Then they switched to putting mail right in front of those servers and they went down to three and they barely even needed the three. It was mostly

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just redundancy at that point. They estimate that well over 90%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of email sent on the internet today is spam. So imagine your mail server is dealing with 90%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco less stuff or even more than that. So it’s a pretty big deal. And this is something

⏹️ ▶️ Marco really cool too. So when I initially talked to them, I said, look, one of your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco spam fighting techniques is graylisting. And graylisting doesn’t work for me. And they said,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco no problem. We can turn graylisting off for just your account. If you want, we can even do turn off graylisting

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for certain usernames or certain mailboxes under your domain. They have this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire customization engine below all this. They can customize it at your request

⏹️ ▶️ Marco to fit you the customer’s needs. So if you want graylisting off, they can do that.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco If you want to turn on or off quarantines or get a quarantine digest sent every couple hours, they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco can do that too. They have a whole platform that they’ve engineered from the ground up to be

⏹️ ▶️ Marco incredibly efficient and incredibly customizable to each customer’s needs.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they have a ridiculous track record. The guy was telling me today all the things he’s done before this.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This company is built by really good engineers with a solid track record in the industry.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco They come from Microsoft and other places, and they really know what they’re doing. So if your

⏹️ ▶️ Marco current solution is disappearing, say if it’s Postini, Forefront, all these other

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⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s how you give a discount for the entire lifetime?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, that’s

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey classy right there.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s some serious stuff. All right, do we wanna talk about

⏹️ ▶️ Casey chips or do we wanna talk about post NDA stuff?

⏹️ ▶️ John Chips.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I had a feeling you would vote that way.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, the big news today is that a lot of people iOS 7 and nobody except

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like 10 reviewers has iPhone 5s’s.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah so I don’t know there’s much more to say about that particular issue.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually there is. Watching I mean obviously by the time this we’re gonna try to publish this episode tomorrow so

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Thursday but already there is this thing on

⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re measuring iOS 7 adoption like basically by the hour by

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey by 15 minutes.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco So as of right now, iOS 7 is already at 19.94%. So basically 20%

⏹️ ▶️ Marco adoption,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John a mere hours.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, what’s it been, like five or six hours since it’s been officially released? So

⏹️ ▶️ Marco hours after its release, it’s already at 20% here. And then our friend underscore David Smith is also

⏹️ ▶️ Marco running one at slash iOS version stats. Also running one just

⏹️ ▶️ Marco among his apps and the data that he collects from his apps. and he’s already at, let

⏹️ ▶️ Marco me see, I believe it’s just about 9% now. So he’s already seeing among people who use his apps

⏹️ ▶️ Marco already have 9% adoption, which I would assume means they’ve not only

⏹️ ▶️ Marco downloaded the update, but have already launched one of his apps in the meantime. So this is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing for day one to have, to have between 10 and 20%, or possibly even more than that,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mere hours after its release. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sure KitKat will be easily twice this in half as much time. Because isn’t that

⏹️ ▶️ Casey how Android goes? It’s instant adoption across the entire hardware line?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah, because right now everyone’s using 4.3, right? John,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey do you want to tell me who’s fabbing the A7?

⏹️ ▶️ John Nobody knows, do they? I haven’t kept up with the news, but there were some

⏹️ ▶️ John rumors earlier in the week that, like, well, maybe Intel’s doing it, because some people were doing back-of-the-envelope calculations.

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m like, well, they gave us the number of transistors, roughly, And they gave us the die area. And we can do some math

⏹️ ▶️ John and say, well, the only way they could fit that number of transistors in this die area is if I just take a proportional

⏹️ ▶️ John scaling from the previous thing. And it’s got to be 22 or 20 nanometers. And the only person who could

⏹️ ▶️ John fab that is Intel. So maybe Intel’s fabbing the A7. I don’t know who’s fabbing the A7.

⏹️ ▶️ John But it’s kind of a shame that Antec did his review of the 5S

⏹️ ▶️ John because I basically agree with everything he said in there. And I would have looked a lot smarter if I could have said it before he published his review.

⏹️ ▶️ John But we didn’t record then. But yeah, I agree with his guess that it’s 28 nanometers.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know who’s fabbing it. I don’t think it’s Intel. But even if it is, 20 nanometers

⏹️ ▶️ John is not a big deal. I don’t think it needs to be 20 or 22 to fit in that die area, because

⏹️ ▶️ John you can’t just do that kind of math. Like, the space transistors take up on a chip depends on how

⏹️ ▶️ John they’re laid out. You can’t just do a number of transistors per unit area, because

⏹️ ▶️ John RAM has a different density than regularized structures, like repeated GPU cores has a

⏹️ ▶️ John different density, than core logic has a different density than the cache areas, and

⏹️ ▶️ John hand layout versus auto layout. And there’s so many factors that go into

⏹️ ▶️ John how many transistors can fit in a particular unit area. I don’t think you can do any math that can prove conclusively that this thing

⏹️ ▶️ John is 20 or 22 nanometers. It’s probably 28. And if Intel was fabbing it, I think

⏹️ ▶️ John we would know by now by some kind of leak. But anyway, I don’t care who’s fabbing it. All I care is

⏹️ ▶️ John what the feature size is. And I don’t think it’s 20 or 22. I think it’s 28.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And somebody on Twitter, I’m sorry, I forgot who. Somebody was replying to us talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about these rumors saying that they really haven’t seen any

⏹️ ▶️ Marco signs of Intel massively ramping up their capacity. And if they were going to do something like take

⏹️ ▶️ Marco on, like be the only manufacturer of the next iPhone, of the next flagship iPhone

⏹️ ▶️ Marco CPU, they would probably have to add substantial capacity.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John So that would be, we would have seen that.

⏹️ ▶️ John Intel has been adding fab capacity that appears to be out of proportion with how many of

⏹️ ▶️ John their own chips they’re gonna make. So there’s been a lot of, over the past several years, like it looks like Intel might start getting

⏹️ ▶️ John more into the business of fabbing chips for other people. And that’s why like all these Apple Intel rumors

⏹️ ▶️ John have been swirling around. It’s like, okay, well, that kind of makes sense for Intel to do because it’s like hedging

⏹️ ▶️ John their bets. Like if they can’t win this architecture war in mobile with their

⏹️ ▶️ John x86 chips, their hedge is that, hey, we’re still the best fab in the world. And

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not a terrible business to be in either, especially since they have basically no

⏹️ ▶️ John competitors at this point. Like Taiwan Semiconductor is still behind them,

⏹️ ▶️ John maybe kind of nipping at their heels, but I don’t know. They have a bad track record there. But Intel is number one with the bullet,

⏹️ ▶️ John right? So they want their chips to be the best in the world and be everywhere. But if they can’t make that

⏹️ ▶️ John work, their fallback plan is, well, we’re still the best fab in the world. And ideally, they’d like to be both. So

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m guessing that no deal has been struck for the A7, and the negotiations continue for the A8 or whatever.

⏹️ ▶️ John But that review, which we should put in the show notes, the 5S review, talks a lot about the A7. Has to do a lot of guesswork,

⏹️ ▶️ John like in terms of testing it and running software against it, because no one has sliced the thing open yet. So we don’t know for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John It looks like it’s dual core. Cache measurements is like it’s double

⏹️ ▶️ John the L1. He was trying to estimate pipeline depth. It’s a lot of guesswork at this point, but it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John pretty much what we expected it to be. No big surprise there. Although, actually, I think there were

⏹️ ▶️ John a couple of surprises when they were doing the benchmarking to see the areas where it regressed versus the A6.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially the GPU, because of its different architecture. That was a big one.

⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, or even like, yeah, the different architecture It was like instead of having full

⏹️ ▶️ John featured repeated cores, it has just lots of shader hardware, but not repeating

⏹️ ▶️ John the entire GPU core, merely just repeating the shader hardware

⏹️ ▶️ John to give you good performance on shader type things, but not quite as good performance in triangle setup

⏹️ ▶️ John and other type of things, which is a good trade-off to make in terms of power consumption and everything, but on artificial benchmarks,

⏹️ ▶️ John it does show some regressions. And even, I think there were some benchmarks that like simple scalar math

⏹️ ▶️ John type things, where it was falling behind due to like 64-bit issues and stuff like that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John that just goes to show that synthetic benchmarks like that give you a good

⏹️ ▶️ John idea of what’s inside the chip, but are almost meaningless in terms of the actual use of

⏹️ ▶️ John performance using a chip, because that’s exactly what Apple or any chip designer are designing for. They’re trying to trade areas

⏹️ ▶️ John that you won’t notice in exchange for lower power consumption, or using

⏹️ ▶️ John more transistors and more power some other area of the chip. So they’re finding where can we cheat? Where can we

⏹️ ▶️ John where can we actually regress and use less and wimpier hardware and in exchange for that put that

⏹️ ▶️ John time energy resources, die area, power consumption into another part of the chip to make it faster

⏹️ ▶️ John and that’s what you want it to be. If it had been like a shrink to 20 nanometers then you can have your cake

⏹️ ▶️ John and eat it too. You’re like all right we don’t have to chew any trade-offs. We’re gonna get lower power, we’re gonna get everything and it’ll

⏹️ ▶️ John be faster in all possible ways. But the A7 is not that chip. Especially since they went up to 64 bits

⏹️ ▶️ John at the same time.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So basically what you’re saying is chip design is like the MP3 codec. Oh, you can’t hear that anyway, so screw it. Let’s cut it out.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, in this case, it is. Because they made trade-offs. It’s pretty amazing

⏹️ ▶️ John what they’ve been able to achieve of getting more or less double real world performance in

⏹️ ▶️ John several end user application areas, while not

⏹️ ▶️ John being a massive shrink and not using double the power. And it’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a pretty amazing balancing act to get such a huge performance boost with almost no downside. It

⏹️ ▶️ John is more power hungry than the A6. They have to compensate for that for giving it a bigger battery. And it still comes

⏹️ ▶️ John in a little bit behind in a few energy usage areas than the A6. But

⏹️ ▶️ John overall, it’s a pretty amazing achievement, what they’ve done with the A7.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, yeah. I mean, especially reading that awesome Nantek review, the more we learn about this

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip, the more impressive that it looks. I mean, these performance gains are

⏹️ ▶️ Marco incredible. And I’ve been looking into, what are the differences

⏹️ ▶️ Marco between the 32 and 64-bit instruction sets? And it’s not,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco when the desktop CPUs went through this, AMD basically took Intel’s instruction

⏹️ ▶️ Marco set and just extended it. They added to it to make it work and to make it backwards compatible.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco The ARMv8 instruction set does not do that. It’s actually a whole different instruction set. And the chip

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just switches modes between the two, and it can switch modes without much of a penalty.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the chip just implements both. And in the future, it doesn’t have to, but right now they will

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for backwards compatibility. And that’s just incredible to have this kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco technology in a mobile chip that is performing as well as desktops did like three or four

⏹️ ▶️ Marco years ago, or four or five years ago, performing like to those kind of levels and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco being able to have these advanced features like 64-bit and hardware accelerated encryption

⏹️ ▶️ Marco instructions and two different instruction sets that can switch between on a whim, like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s just awesome. This is really advanced stuff.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there is one equivalent in the x86 to x86-64 transition, and that’s floating

⏹️ ▶️ John point stuff, where the old x86 had stack-based floating point, and the x86-64

⏹️ ▶️ John did all that stuff with its own SSE instructions and everything. And so yeah, the stack-based floating

⏹️ ▶️ John point was still supported. But every compiler that targeted x86-64 was like, look, don’t ever

⏹️ ▶️ John generate stack-based floating point code. And so there was a similar instance where it’s like two

⏹️ ▶️ John instruction sets for floating point calculations. And as soon as you didn’t have to use the old one anymore, compilers

⏹️ ▶️ John stopped emitting that code. And so it was kind of like the same thing, where you have the

⏹️ ▶️ John ARM V4, or whatever the instruction set is, the old 32-bit one. Yeah, V7.

⏹️ ▶️ John That one is like off to the side and like, we’ll just turn off the hardware when it’s not in use. And ideally, it will

⏹️ ▶️ John never be in use because no one who is emitting code for a 64-bit thing will ever emit code for that

⏹️ ▶️ John because it’s an entirely different instruction set. Well, same thing on x86. No one is putting out stack-based

⏹️ ▶️ John floating point code anymore. And so even though that area needs to be on the chip, they don’t need to make it good. It doesn’t have to be fast.

⏹️ ▶️ John It can be powered down most of the time. So that’s one small corner of that transition that’s like

⏹️ ▶️ John the ARM transition. But yeah, it’s a little bit easier to do what they did, like

⏹️ ▶️ John make it backward compatible with ARM 32 while kind of having a unique implementation

⏹️ ▶️ John of 64. Because as weird as the 32-bit ARM

⏹️ ▶️ John architecture was, it is nowhere near as weird and Byzantine as x86. Well,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s much younger. It had a lot of the advantage of hindsight in its design.

⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s risky. It’s not a CISC construction site where you have to deal with these crazy things that blow up

⏹️ ▶️ John into a million micro-coded instructions on the real architecture that the chip is

⏹️ ▶️ Marco made. I will say though, looking at various links

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and supporting things, it really does look like, you know, going back for a second, that Intel is almost certainly not

⏹️ ▶️ Marco fabbing this, that it’s almost definitely Samsung 28 nanometer. But it’s worth talking

⏹️ ▶️ Marco about why that would be a big deal. If Intel was fabbing this,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco using say, what are they at, at 22 nanometer for their high-end CPUs now? Or 20?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John 22?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco 22.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John If they’re at that kind of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco feature size,

⏹️ ▶️ Marco assuming that they struck some kind of deal with Apple where they wouldn’t fab anyone else’s mobile

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chips for a couple years, say, then Apple could basically be an

⏹️ ▶️ Marco entire generation or two ahead of what everyone else in the smartphone and tablet space was

⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing with regard to power efficiency. So they could have either twice the CPU

⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life, or they could have twice the performance at the same battery life. That kind of level of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco a difference there. And they could maintain that as long as they had Intel as their manufacturer, and no one else was having

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Intel as their manufacturer. It’s a really big deal.

⏹️ ▶️ John So here’s the problem with the scenario, and probably the reason it hasn’t happened. Intel would rather

⏹️ ▶️ John that Apple use its x86-based chips in its tablets and phones. And that is

⏹️ ▶️ John not, right now, Intel’s not to give up on that, nor should they be. Because if you look at those Anandtech benchmarks,

⏹️ ▶️ John they’ve got Bay Trail in there, which is their Atom processor. And that’s a tablet processor, not a phone processor. So it’s not really a fair

⏹️ ▶️ John fight. But it’s not a desktop processor, right? And Bay Trail

⏹️ ▶️ John matches the A7 and beats it in a few benchmarks. Granted, Bay Trail is not shipping. And again, it’s a tablet instead

⏹️ ▶️ John of a phone thing. But the question is, how good is Intel getting at making low

⏹️ ▶️ John power x86 parts that could conceivably be in a tablet or phone? And the answer is, they’re getting really

⏹️ ▶️ John close. because this amazing A7 that we think is all wonderful and everything, Intel has a chip

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not out yet, but will be out soon, that gives it a run for its money in tablets, if not in phones.

⏹️ ▶️ John And Intel, like Apple, is nothing if not determined. Like, this is not the end of the line. They’ve finally gotten

⏹️ ▶️ John religion about low-power chips, and they’re finally targeting things. So once Intel turns its attention to a market, kind of like

⏹️ ▶️ John how they lost track of the ball with the NetBurks market architecture and the Pentium 4s and chasing clock

⏹️ ▶️ John speed, once they put their mind to it and came out with the core architecture, Like they just blew everyone away. So Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John is currently turning the company around and saying, we need to make chips that can fit in phones

⏹️ ▶️ John and tablets. And you can be sure they’re going to Samsung and Apple and everybody else and saying, here’s our roadmap.

⏹️ ▶️ John In two, three years, we’re going to have a 14 nanometer chip, and it’s going to have this power

⏹️ ▶️ John and whatever. Compare that to your internal roadmap, and Apple, we think you should put x86. Like this

⏹️ ▶️ John is the flip side of the thing we talked about. Like, oh, 64-bit ARM chips, they’re going to put them in a MacBook Air. The flip side is Intel

⏹️ ▶️ John says, no, no, no, no, no, Apple. Don’t put ARM chips in your MacBook Air. Put x86 chips in all

⏹️ ▶️ John your iOS devices. And that’s not crazy.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s an appeal to that, which is, hey, same instruction set on a Mac and iOS. That’s good, right?

⏹️ ▶️ John Everyone likes that. And if Intel can say, no one is going to be able to match the power and

⏹️ ▶️ John performance that we’re going to have two or three years out because look at this roadmap, that’s credible coming from Intel.

⏹️ ▶️ John Given their track record, you can’t say, oh, forget about that. Apple will always be able to do something better with its own arm architecture.

⏹️ ▶️ John Of course, Apple likes controlling its destiny more than Intel will let it control its destiny, so that is an ongoing negotiation,

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m sure. But I’m not writing them off. I’m not writing off x86 or Intel in this space

⏹️ ▶️ John until I see what they have to offer. They’re just beginning to be competitive, but seeing that Bay Trail,

⏹️ ▶️ John those Bay Trail numbers up against the A7 lets you know that, by the way, Intel is out there

⏹️ ▶️ John and they’re a giant 800-pound gorilla and they know what the heck they’re doing. And maybe not this year, don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John worry about it this year, But next year, they should be on your radar. So that’s what I’d be watching for.

⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the flip side of the, oh, MacBook Air has 64-bit ARM CPUs in them story.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So do you feel like that we’re going to come to the point where we’re just waiting for this marriage like we did

⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the United States between Apple and Verizon? Does that question make sense?

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, Apple already married Intel for the Macs. And what everyone’s waiting for now is a divorce.

⏹️ ▶️ John Like, oh, they’re going to split up. And Apple’s going to make ARM CPUs everywhere and everything like that. But

⏹️ ▶️ John we have to see how this turns out. Like, it’s not a slam dunk that Intel is going to have chips that beat everything that Apple does. They’re

⏹️ ▶️ John just barely starting to be competitive now. And x86 does have a disadvantage being disgusting at all,

⏹️ ▶️ John even the 64-bit variants, compared to the ARM things. And Apple is a control freak and

⏹️ ▶️ John does really prefer getting an architecture license from ARM and then doing everything themselves. Apple would prefer if they

⏹️ ▶️ John could just do everything themselves and get Intel to fab them with their super awesome fabs that in two or three years’ time,

⏹️ ▶️ John it would be 14 nanometer, right? And Intel prefers x86 everywhere, because that’s something

⏹️ ▶️ John that they can own and control to some degree, or to a larger degree than ARM.

⏹️ ▶️ John So we are in a transitional period. And I would love to be in the multi-year-long

⏹️ ▶️ John boardroom meetings between those two companies trying to negotiate how this is going to turn out. It’s actually very interesting.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will point out, though, before we leave this topic, that the Bay Trail CPUs that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Intel has not only are not yet in a phone compatible power

⏹️ ▶️ Marco envelope, but I just looked up on Wikipedia and they are using 22 nanometer. So the idea

⏹️ ▶️ Marco that Intel is only able to basically match the A7 in most

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways in performance, they’re only able to match it, not beat it, using

⏹️ ▶️ Marco this entire generation ahead of process technology

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and using more power than the A7, that’s significant.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s a substantial difference.

⏹️ ▶️ John Well, they used to be even crappier. Like, if you look at Intel’s previous efforts to do anything

⏹️ ▶️ John low power, they have come a really, really long way. And like I said, they’re not there yet,

⏹️ ▶️ John but I wouldn’t count them out. They should be doing better than they are.

⏹️ ▶️ John For years, it’s like, Intel, what’s your problem? Why don’t you just make a decent mobile chip? They’re like, well, we have these

⏹️ ▶️ John Atom processors, and they’re kind of good and cheap PCs. Like, no, no, we need something that fits in a phone or a tablet.

⏹️ ▶️ John OK, we’ll make something. Like, they’ve just been making crap. They haven’t really been putting their A-team on it. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John now they’re finally waking up. And there are other issues in terms of doing system-on-a-chip versus individual CPUs

⏹️ ▶️ John that Intel needs to gain expertise in. So there is a bit of a learning curve there.

⏹️ ▶️ John But their roadmap, and Techs has done a couple of articles on this as well.

⏹️ ▶️ John Look at the roadmap three chips down, what Intel says they’re going to have on the low end and on the

⏹️ ▶️ John high end, and how they kind of start converging into a continuum of chips that go all the way from phone

⏹️ ▶️ John power envelopes all the way up into Mac Pro power envelopes, and how Intel sees eventually a

⏹️ ▶️ John unified architecture that spans that range. And you can’t count them out.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t look at those slides and say, I’ll forget if that’ll ever happen, because if you had said

⏹️ ▶️ John the same thing when they had the Pentium 4s and it looked like AMD was kicking their butt they showed you the core architecture thing

⏹️ ▶️ John you’d be like yeah whatever I’ll believe it when I see it well they did it there so I have faith

⏹️ ▶️ John in Intel still

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know I I would have severe doubts that Apple would ever give up that control again like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Apple to have done the a7 and the whole a series you know have to have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the all this chip design in-house where they’re making exclusive chips that you know Intel can go sell their

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chips to Samsung and everyone else they don’t care to have for Apple to have exclusive

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chips that are totally under their control and they can have pretty much anyone they

⏹️ ▶️ Marco want, you know, within a very very small group of people who are capable of it, but they can have anybody they want manufacture

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it, they can set their own schedule for the most part, they can, they can, you know, get a lot of price

⏹️ ▶️ Marco gains by being the designers and basically just using somebody else as like a dumb fab.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t see, you know, it’s different in the Macs. In the Macs, Apple hardly sells any Macs

⏹️ ▶️ Marco relative to the number of iOS devices they sell. The Mac business, they can and there’s no really good

⏹️ ▶️ Marco alternative in the Mac and PC space besides Intel right now but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know for them to give up such an important component to go backwards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in in the direction they’ve been trying so hard to go to to switch to someone else’s processor

⏹️ ▶️ Marco and and system on a chip and and to let then anybody else sell the exact same

⏹️ ▶️ Marco chip in their own phones I don’t I don’t see Apple

⏹️ ▶️ John well that’s all part of the negotiation who’s to say that Intel would let anyone else buy that chip. Like, wouldn’t that

⏹️ ▶️ John be part of the negotiation? And the other thing about, oh, well, Apple can now have anybody fab it. So far, they’ve been having Samsung

⏹️ ▶️ John fab them, which is not good. You know, like, Apple does not want Sam, Apple wants, you know,

⏹️ ▶️ John Taiwan Semiconductor to fab them, and they’re not online yet, right? So

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s an uncomfortable situation for everybody. Everyone’s got something to offer, and everyone’s got something they don’t want to give up.

⏹️ ▶️ John Right? Apple wants to get off Samsung. They want to have someone else fab their stuff. They want to retain complete control, but they would also

⏹️ ▶️ John like to be fabbing things at competitive or superior levels. And

⏹️ ▶️ John so maybe Intel wants to get into this space. So maybe Intel and Apple could reach a deal and say,

⏹️ ▶️ John OK, we will fab your ARM chips for you. And then the next year, you promise to buy our chips.

⏹️ ▶️ John But we’ll only sell you the system and we won’t sell it to anyone else. It’ll be exclusive contract, provided you can

⏹️ ▶️ John provide such and such a volume. Like, the business deals to be made here, there are sort of win-win

⏹️ ▶️ John scenarios for Apple and Intel if they could just figure out the right balance of

⏹️ ▶️ John control versus money versus guaranteed sales versus volumes versus not helping our competitors and the whole nine

⏹️ ▶️ John yards. And if Apple won’t talk, Intel is surely talking to Samsung as well and everybody

⏹️ ▶️ John else. So it’s a delicate dance between these giants in the phone business to see who

⏹️ ▶️ John is everyone negotiating for a superior position down the line.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know what I think is most cool about all of this, though, is that this mobile space is interesting

⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the hardware straight through the software. It’s not like there’s any part of this ecosystem

⏹️ ▶️ Casey that’s boring. Everything is in flux. Everything is moving and

⏹️ ▶️ Casey very quickly. And it’s a heck of a lot of fun to watch, that’s for sure.

⏹️ ▶️ John Much better than the PC space, where it was just like Windows and Intel for so long, and then AMD kind of made

⏹️ ▶️ John it interesting briefly before Intel smushed them. Yep.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, and with that, let’s wrap it up this week. Thanks a lot to our two sponsors, Squarespace and MailRoute.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco We’ll see you next week.

⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Twitter, you can follow them at

⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

⏹️ ▶️ Casey So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-Q-U-S-A

⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s accidental, they didn’t

⏹️ ▶️ John mean to

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Titles

⏹️ ▶️ John are lacking today.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey What the hell’s wrong with the chat room?

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess we weren’t that funny today. I guess

⏹️ ▶️ John not. So swimming in 16 gigabyte gold is pretty good. You just got to decide whether you have the space

⏹️ ▶️ John after the 16.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, non-breaking space. Wow.

⏹️ ▶️ John Don’t put anything like that into podcast titles with strange characters as they get mangled but I’m so disappointed

⏹️ ▶️ John with RSS feed readers because now that I have an RSS feed on my hypercritical

⏹️ ▶️ John site which you know never gets updated because I never post anything to it but anyway

⏹️ ▶️ John I get complaints and say oh your feed is broken and my feed is so not broken everything

⏹️ ▶️ John shows up everything shows up as one giant paragraph the feed has P tags in it

⏹️ ▶️ John it validates the valid atom feed

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you can run it but are the P tags

⏹️ ▶️ Marco direct descendants of the item tag or or are they encoded as HTML?

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m using the namespace support in Atom, where you can say, in the item, this

⏹️ ▶️ John section that I’m going to tell you now is HTML namespace. I’m not making this stuff up. I’m following

⏹️ ▶️ John the standards. The problem is the readers don’t follow the standards. The readers are like

⏹️ ▶️ John sort of half-assed, heuristic kind of, like they’re not following

⏹️ ▶️ John the standard. The standard provides a way for you to put HTML inside there without escaping it. Because that’s the other thing. You can do like,

⏹️ ▶️ John OK, well, I’m just going to escape everything. It’s going to be ampersand, LT, semicolons all over the place. Then you have to worry about the readers

⏹️ ▶️ John not correctly unescaping that. So I was trying to avoid that by saying, look, I’ll make it easy for you. There’s

⏹️ ▶️ John a way in the Atom standard to put HTML in there and have actual HTML tags and tell

⏹️ ▶️ John the VEXFL namespaces. Used to be you were looking at Atom feed. Now you’re about to look at HTML. And

⏹️ ▶️ John all that’s in the HTML is P tags and whatever. And things just swallow it up and don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John show the breaks between paragraphs. Some of them do. Some of them read it fine. but other ones don’t. And so

⏹️ ▶️ John it’s just this constant struggle to find the authors of these feed reader applications, send them the

⏹️ ▶️ John URL of my feed, tell them that it’s valid, tell them that their thing should render it correctly, and then never

⏹️ ▶️ John hear from them again.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, how does that work out when you do that?

⏹️ ▶️ John Occasionally. Like, there were a couple of bugs that were easier to find, didn’t have to do with formatting. I

⏹️ ▶️ John think the reader guy, I sent him stuff about that. He’s like, oh, I found out that’s a bug. I think it was like, actually, it wasn’t the

⏹️ ▶️ John feed itself. It was subscribing. They’d click on the little link to subscribe, They couldn’t handle it because my

⏹️ ▶️ John subscription things didn’t have like a file name extension or some other crazy thing or you know their

⏹️ ▶️ John their URL parsing didn’t as a like as a domain specifier

⏹️ ▶️ John and so would treat the entire thing as a search string.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn’t even know you could do this in this feed. I’m looking at your feed. Yeah the way you just embed the HTML directly I had no

⏹️ ▶️ Marco idea you could even run it run it through an atom validator. It’s a miracle. Here’s your problem. You have two problems. First

⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all your link in your header says RSS and the feeds actually Adam that’s against all standards

⏹️ ▶️ Marco second of all Adams terrible that’s your problem right there

⏹️ ▶️ Marco see the reason why Adam is terrible to parse is and not you know not like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco parse the XML but I guess you know the reason why it’s terrible to interpret the tree that is parsed is that

⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can do a million different things in Adam and a lot of it like because Adam RSS

⏹️ ▶️ Marco was designed by a a couple of crazy people and so it’s really simple and it works and

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s really easy to deal with. Atom was designed by a committee in response to limitations

⏹️ ▶️ Marco in RSS so it was doomed to be this ridiculous bloated thing that could encompass

⏹️ ▶️ Marco every possible thing you might ever want to do with anything in a feed. But

⏹️ ▶️ John Atom

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is

⏹️ ▶️ John a closed standard like it’s not like where you have to interpret 8,000 different date formats like Atom

⏹️ ▶️ John defines what the format is and that’s all you if you just follow the Atom standard you’re fine that’s why I I picked it and

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco well but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco for somebody implementing like you know a feed parser following the standard first of all you have to have a bunch of

⏹️ ▶️ Marco like weird fuzzy logic and exceptions to deal with feeds that aren’t properly formed but

⏹️ ▶️ Marco second of all dealing with Adam it’s just such a pain because there are so many different possibilities like to say all right

⏹️ ▶️ Marco well you know what what is the date that I should display for this article well there’s like 16 different

⏹️ ▶️ Marco ways to represent dates and they all have slightly different semantic meanings and some people have you know one or two of them some people have

⏹️ ▶️ Marco none of them some people have these three but one of them will be 60 years in the future for some reason you got to deal with that.

⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Well

⏹️ ▶️ John that’s RSS you’re describing, not Atom.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well RSS there are a lot fewer value types. Like there’s it’s a

⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot simpler of a structure. Atom tries to represent every possible thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s very complex as a result and the range of possible

⏹️ ▶️ Marco situations and meanings that can be encompassed by Atom is so much bigger that in practice

⏹️ ▶️ Marco it leads to not only much harder to write parsers for it, but a lot more likely errors

⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you’re if you are relying on it being parsed properly.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I think it’s harder to write

⏹️ ▶️ John an RSS parser because I think it’s too more Wild West and like I’m not using esoteric atom features

⏹️ ▶️ John like you can look at that atom feed with your eyes and understand every single piece of it. Like it’s not I’m not

⏹️ ▶️ John I’m not even doing any set of attachments or anything like that. It’s very simple and straightforward and there is no ambiguity.

⏹️ ▶️ John There’s no data in there that could possibly be in any other format. And so it appeals to me and no, I don’t think the

⏹️ ▶️ John fact of the text of the links as RSS has anything to do with it.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is so like this perfectly represents you versus me right here.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like you are the Atom feed and I’m the RSS parser. Like

⏹️ ▶️ Marco mine’s like all like pragmatic and simple and you know not technically that correct but it

⏹️ ▶️ Marco just works and you’re like you’re like well what about this? It

⏹️ ▶️ John doesn’t just work. RSS feeds have parsing. RSS feeds have tons of problems

⏹️ ▶️ John all the time because people produce junk RSS feeds. I’m totally a proponent of don’t put out junk

⏹️ ▶️ John and make people have to handle it. I mean, that’s the whole thing of like Postel’s law of like, be liberal

⏹️ ▶️ John in what you consume and conservative in what you output and like parsers that die as soon as they find something that’s invalid

⏹️ ▶️ John versus parsers that just stumble along. And I think HTML5 is the correct approach, which

⏹️ ▶️ John is don’t immediately die if you encounter any error, but document your error handling precisely

⏹️ ▶️ John so that everyone can render it the same way. And I think the web has proven that that model is the correct Because the old

⏹️ ▶️ John one where everyone was just writing crap and then parsers doing whatever the hell they want was untenable. And the one where you don’t

⏹️ ▶️ John show anything on the page if a single thing is broken, it’s also untenable. And the correct solution is

⏹️ ▶️ John to have a well-defined standard all the way down to how you handle error conditions so that everybody can implement

⏹️ ▶️ John their parsers in exactly the same way that don’t blow up when you have an error, but that all pages still look the same.

⏹️ ▶️ John And so I think it’s perfectly possible to implement an atom parser using that same thing.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right, go for it.

⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t want to. wants to parse Adam’s feed. It was an

⏹️ ▶️ Casey accident. It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Accident. It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey John

⏹️ ▶️ John Syracuse, a wise old soul. Since then he’s born the smack bro.

⏹️ ▶️ John Marco Arment. He’s a product man. Selling them off just as fast

⏹️ ▶️ John as he can. Casey. Who the hell is Casey? Who the hell is Casey? It was

⏹️ ▶️ John an accident. It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted.

⏹️ ▶️ John Accident. It was an accident. Accidentally podcasted.

⏹️ ▶️ John Accident. It was an accident. Accidentally

⏹️ ▶️ John podcasted.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, hopefully two of the three of us will have new phones next week.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco And all of our wives will.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah,

⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John hopefully. Not

⏹️ ▶️ John next week. Like I said, Tina’s probably not going to get hers until the

⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey comeback.

⏹️ ▶️ John Until it’s boring. That really was her. I checked her IP.

⏹️ ▶️ Marco I love how that’s how you find out.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Can we please put that in the show?

⏹️ ▶️ John Absolutely. Oh, God. How else are you going to know? I’m going to get it from her. She’s not in the room with me. She’s in another

⏹️ ▶️ John part of the house.

⏹️ ▶️ Casey Couldn’t have sent her like a text message or something. Jesus Christ. You could have asked her. That’s fantastic.