664: Humanity Gets in the Way
06 Nov 2025AI podcast-chapter generators were never designed to handle us.
Episode Description:
- Pre-show: Casey dropped his 17 Pro
- 🗣️ The ATP Holiday Store is back! Order before 9 November! 🗣️
- An aside about podcast chapters and Apple’s recent news
- Follow-up:
- The current MacBook Pro design is from the M1 (via Ben Mattison)
- More dashed Mac Pro dreams
- Apple’s internal chip codename nomenclature
- Variants
P= A_G= A_X / A_Z / M_S= M_ ProC= M_ MaxD= M_ UltraX= M_ Pro/Max/Ultra
- Examples
A11=H10PA12X=H11GA14=H13PM1=H13GM2 Pro=H14S
- GPUs use
Ginstead ofH - More island/chip names from 26.1 RC:
Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/Kernel.framework/Versions/A/Headers/arm/cpuid.hXcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX.sdk/usr/include/mach/machine.h- Apple codenames
- John’s tale of Xcode 26.1 woe
- John’s un-fixed Electron apps
- More clipboard history options in macOS 26.1
- M5 MacBook Pro speed tests
- Casey has tried the new Developer Strap
- An aside about nanotexture displays
- Casey upgraded to Tahoe
/r/overcast- Post-show: Marco plays with 3D printing
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Joanna Stern tries Neo, the household “robot”
Sponsored by:
- DeleteMe: Making it quick, easy and safe to remove your personal data online.
- Squarespace: Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code atp.
- Zapier: Put AI to work across your company — for real.
Become a member for ATP Overtime, ad-free episodes, member specials, and our early-release, unedited “bootleg” feed!
Chapters
- It has been [0] days
- ATP Store
- Apple Podcasts AI chapters
- MBP design started at M1
- That Mac Pro hope… wasn’t
- Backward-compatible app icons
- Sponsor: Zapier
- Electron vs. Tahoe
- 26.1 clipboard-history retention
- M5 MBP speed tests
- Sponsor: Squarespace
- Vision Pro Developer Strap (2)
- Nanotexture
- Upgraded to Tahoe
- Sponsor: DeleteMe (code ATP)
- Overcast Reddit
- Ending theme
- 3D printing 🖼️
It has been [0] days
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think we should figure out a way to do some sort of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey completely legal betting on how long it takes me to ruin a phone because I’ve gone from never ruining phones to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey doing it like it’s going out of style.
⏹️ ▶️ John gotta have one of those signs that says it has been X days
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey since someone dropped
⏹️ ▶️ John their phone on ATP and it’ll just take the number. We had to reset it to zero for Marco and now it had
⏹️ ▶️ John gone up to, I don’t know, 1520, but
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey it sounds like we’re gonna have to reset that number again. Well, actually you don’t. What happened?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m, I’m exaggerating for comedic effect, but, uh, sometimes since
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we last recorded, I forget what day it was. Um, I have to back up a half step. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we have a two car garage and although it does fit both cars, there is a lot of superfluous
⏹️ ▶️ Casey stuff around the cars and we do park both cars in there every night. But there’s bikes, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a wagon, there’s a stroller. Some of these things we don’t really use anymore because our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey children are older. There’s a garage refrigerator. There’s our hot water heaters in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the garage. It used to be that our furnace was in the garage. It’s not anymore. There’s a lot of stuff in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And, um, when we need to get to the outdoor fridge because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of uninteresting reasons, it’s the, the door basically opens into the passenger side
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of Aaron’s car. And there’s a little bit of room to open the door, but not a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it so happened that one morning, I want to say it was like Friday morning or something like that. I needed to get something
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that was kind of deeper within the outdoor fridge and so I decided okay What I’m gonna do is I’m going to move Aaron’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey car out of the garage because she inevitably has some errand to run at Some point. Oh, you were talking about the door
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the fridge. Yes. I’m sorry. Was that
⏹️ ▶️ John So I thought you meant the door From the house into the garage.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that that is a fair interpretation But that is not at all what I meant the door
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the garage is below the house by a couple of feet because you know the house is sitting on a,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, on a crawl space and the garage is just, you know, concrete on the ground. Um, so yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so there’s no issue with the people door. There’s an issue with the refrigerator door. My apologies. Thank you for
⏹️ ▶️ Casey jumping in. So I move Aaron’s car out and I’m doing this in my pajamas and my pajamas in the, in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the summertime, and I’ve since switched, uh, for unrelated reasons, actually, but in the summertime, my pajamas are basically like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really oversized, not exactly boxer shorts. I guess they’re more like athletic shorts and a t-shirt.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and a t-shirt and I, my shorts have pockets in them. And so I’m in Aaron’s car and I’m moving
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the car out of the garage and I go to get out of the car and I hear clunk, clunk, clunk.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Never trust soft shorts pockets to hold a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey phone securely. You’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said this before. You’ve said this before and yet I don’t listen. But
⏹️ ▶️ John did the phone fall all the way out of the car or did it just fall into like the crack between the seat and the…
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the… John, it fell all the way onto the concrete, screened down.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then I went and grabbed it. There’s a little teeny tiny dent by the camera control.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Otherwise, it’s fine. No damage.
⏹️ ▶️ John out. Do you have a case on your phone or no?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I do not. It yeeted the pop socket halfway across the damn driveway, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey otherwise, no damage. I couldn’t believe it. So I don’t know if it was absurdly good luck, which
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it may have been, or it could be that this this phone really and truly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not Casey proof. I’m not going to tempt fate that way, but Casey resistant.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s not that high though. You were from a seated position in your car to the concrete versus Marco standing
⏹️ ▶️ John similar, you know, from his shorts pocket to the concrete. Yeah, I think you-
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey I hear you, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey remember that the iPhone 16 Pro got damaged or got shattered
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right after I got back from St. Jude and this was the whole thing with the express replacement, because I was getting out of the passenger side
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Baron’s car with my exercise shorts on, which is also, to Marco’s point, soft shorts.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Soft shorts. I know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But nevertheless, it was effectively the same thing. And it was onto concrete, just like it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the last time. And it survived with almost no damage. So either I got incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lucky, which I’m happy with, or these phones really are more reliable, or durable, I should say, durable.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re making the same mistake over and over again as giving us some good statistical data. You just got to keep doing this with every
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m sure that won’t be a problem. Right.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Yeah. I’ve got that one covered.
ATP Store
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Speaking of having things covered, this is your final
⏹️ ▶️ Casey warning, your last chance. This is it to go to atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash store. This is your chance to go and get your winter
⏹️ ▶️ Casey merchandise. So John, do we have any news? Is there anything you want to tell us or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can you just do a quick rundown of all the merch please?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the chicken had to sold out, so I’m excited about that. We’re not going to be.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I did not know this. I really, truly did not know this. This is excellent news. I never expected that. I thought we were
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to hold on to these for as long as the mugs.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, apparently you ordered more or less the right amount. We will not be burdened with chicken hats. Remember the mug sold out a while ago.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now the chicken hats are sold out. So congratulations to everybody who got a chicken hat 2.0.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the only stock items we have. Everything else is sort of created on demand. So yeah, this is your last
⏹️ ▶️ John chance to get any of this new stuff. The quarter zip has been very popular among people who don’t like the little zippers
⏹️ ▶️ John to go all the way down to the bottom. And if you want to get one of the ATP T568A or B ethernet
⏹️ ▶️ John shirts, those are all available. We got the ugly Tahoe icon shirt. We’ve got some M5 stuff. We’ve got Mac
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro Believe. Mac Pro Believe had really had a hell of a time during the sale. We’ve been selling the shirt,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, how many sales? The past four or five. We’ve been selling the shirt for a long time because you know, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John hasn’t done anything with the Mac Pro. So I want people to be out there, right? But
⏹️ ▶️ John obviously at this point, like anyone who’s interested in a Mac Pro Believe thing probably already has it. Although we have been adding more varieties
⏹️ ▶️ John like this time we have like a pullover hoodie and other stuff. Anyway, there’s like a minimum threshold
⏹️ ▶️ John for the products to be printed. You have to get at least like 10 orders or something, otherwise that’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John enough for them to be worthwhile to print them. And for a while there, it was close on the Mac Pro Believe
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff, whether they were gonna sell enough to actually be printed. But I think they both just barely crossed the line of 10
⏹️ ▶️ John people out there who didn’t have any Mac Pro Believe stuff got it. So those will be printed as well. And of
⏹️ ▶️ John course we have our plain ATP stuff. Yeah, so this is it. Sunday, November
⏹️ ▶️ John 9th is the last day you can buy this stuff. So if you’re listening to this and it is not Sunday, November
⏹️ ▶️ John 9th, or if it is Sunday, November 9th or earlier, go to the store
⏹️ ▶️ John and buy your stuff because once it’s gone, it’s gone. You’ll always be able to get ATP gift memberships, but
⏹️ ▶️ John this merchandise is not long for this world. So and like I said, we don’t have anything like
⏹️ ▶️ John mugs or hats that are gonna be left over. Once the sale ends, This stuff goes away. So do your holiday shopping
⏹️ ▶️ John early for that nerd in your life or give somebody a link to get you something here. Uh, atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ John slash store until Sunday, November 9th.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, is there a way that one could save money on this? Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yes, actually, if you join to become a member at a TPM
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash join, you get a discount on merchandise. Now, John will tell you that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can join buy stuff and then cancel. I will tell you that you can join
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and buy stuff. And it’s a really good idea. So I suggest you join
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP membership because then you’re a member. Then you get all the other cool member stuff. You get all the exclusive content,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the bonus episodes. You get to say you’re a member, which itself is very cool. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you get custom artwork, you get the bootleg, the ad free. You
⏹️ ▶️ John overtime in every episode.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yep, bonus content in every single episode. So it’s and if you join now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a member you get access to all of the past member content also So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you don’t it isn’t like you’re starting just from you know the point that you join and only getting it from them You can go back and listen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to hours and hours and hours more of us Which is such an amazing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco selling point. I’m sure for everybody out there, especially any like Partners
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who are like sharing a car with one of our listeners right now now, kind of, you know, being supportive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of their love of our show, but not necessarily into our show as much themselves. Imagine how this sounds to them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can pay some money possibly out of a joint finance arrangement that you have with this person
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have hours more of us. That is such an incredible proposition. So please,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco atb.fm slash join and you can also save money on your t-shirts.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, and the overtime stuff, we have a lot of good stuff in overtime and sometimes something will come up and I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John like, oh, that was on a past episode and I have to go look it up and like, oh, it was in an overtime. Overtime
⏹️ ▶️ John is different than the after show. Like the after show, we’re more casual and might talk about personal stuff or whatever. Overtime is still a tech
⏹️ ▶️ John topic, but it’s usually a little bit weirder because it’s stuff that normally wouldn’t even make it to the show. See
⏹️ ▶️ John past explanations of what overtime it is. But anyway, we have a chapter marker in every episode for
⏹️ ▶️ John overtime. So if you want to go back and listen to overtimes, it’s easy just to start an old episode and immediately jump to the overtime
⏹️ ▶️ John chapter. And if you want to know what the overtimes are, just go look at the website or look in your podcast client,
⏹️ ▶️ John look at the show notes, you’ll always see what the overtime topic is. We describe
⏹️ ▶️ John it in the show, it’s in the chapter title, it’s on the website. So there’s no mystery of, you know, are you what overtimes
⏹️ ▶️ John are you interested in, you can just scroll through the old episodes and find overtime topics that you think you might be interested in,
⏹️ ▶️ John and go back and listen to them with the chapter marker. And if you have a podcast client that doesn’t support chapter markers, change
⏹️ ▶️ John that because chapter markers are good.
Apple Podcasts AI chapters
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s actually news on that front. I mean, I’m not really prepared to talk about it yet, but Apple Podcasts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did just announce that they are going to be doing AI chapter marks, which I believe,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think Spotify Podcasts did that a few months ago, where they’re basically like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco taking the transcripts they’re generating for podcasts and then making chapters
⏹️ ▶️ Marco based on like, hey, what topics are they talking about and when? which honestly is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it’s an interesting feature. I’m investigating it myself for Overcast.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m, you know, I have nothing really to show for it yet, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s kind of, I think this is starting to significantly change the listening experience
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of podcasts, and I think what we all look, how we
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all navigate our podcasts in like a year or two might look very different than how we do it now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think that’s a kind of interesting news. You know, Spotify did it. I didn’t really hear about it, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, for Apple Podcasts to be doing it, I think that’s kind of a big deal.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I have a link at it for next week’s episode, but since we’re talking about it now, I believe
⏹️ ▶️ John they won’t do it if you have manually created chapters. And I’d kind of know what AI generated chapters are like, because
⏹️ ▶️ John Merlin makes them all the times for Rectif stuff just to sort of organize his thoughts about the show or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I can tell you, especially for a show like ours, manually created chapters are much more accurate
⏹️ ▶️ John because we know exactly what we’re talking about. This is the overtime top up we have a snappy line for, we have a, we can be very precise.
⏹️ ▶️ John Whereas an AI generated description would be like, they’re talking about some kind of Apple and technology stuff again. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t make it a little bit more specific like that. And vests for some reason. Yeah, I really do hope
⏹️ ▶️ John that my recollection of what I read today is correct. That if you have manually
⏹️ ▶️ John created chapters that Apple Podcasts will not try to auto-generate its own. Or rather, if
⏹️ ▶️ John it did, like I’m happy for it to do both. Here’s the manually created chapters and here’s the auto-generated ones. But
⏹️ ▶️ John what I don’t wanna see is, oh, well now we’re just ignoring the manual created ones and we’ll just show you the auto-generated
⏹️ ▶️ John ones because manual ones are always going to be more precise, better, like, you know, we know
⏹️ ▶️ John what we’re gonna talk about. We can put a one-liner description instead of a bunch of vague stuff. So yeah, I
⏹️ ▶️ John think this is a good feature and it’ll be very useful for people who listen to podcasts that don’t have chapters at all, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I really hope it doesn’t mess up our good thing that we have going here, which is a podcast with very good chapters
⏹️ ▶️ John and all the episodes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, in all fairness, we’ll be fine because most of our listeners don’t use Apple Podcasts, and so we’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be fine. And I think the listeners,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most listeners who listen to shows that put in manual chapter markers, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are much more likely to use third-party apps for their podcast listening.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Chapter markers are pretty nerdy for certain audiences, typically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like tech people and Germans, and especially German tech people.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so, that community tends to not use Apple Podcasts proportionally as much as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyone else. But certainly, again, I think this is very interesting.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It basically makes podcasts more navigable and more accessible if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it works well. And that’s a big if, and there’s a lot of challenges overcome but like that could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be really really I think experience changing for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the medium and it’s some ways good in some ways not so good we’ll find out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I think it’s it’s kind of interesting like there you know that we’re you know the rise of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cheap transcripts basically is going to dramatically change what podcasts are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco doing and credit to Apple Spotify entering the podcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco game made Apple finally start working on Apple podcasts in a meaningful way.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like before Spotify really challenged them in podcasts, Apple podcasts, I could always depend on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to not do much of anything. Like no offense to the podcast team, but like they didn’t move
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much at all. They didn’t move quickly, which I considered a feature and a bug for me being in the alternative app business.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was fine with that. Apple podcast really has not done much of anything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for most of the last 15 years. But then ever since Spotify
⏹️ ▶️ Marco started competing with them pretty well, pretty effectively, Apple is now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco matching Spotify feature for feature in podcasts and sometimes getting ahead of them and sometimes falling behind. But they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco moving again. They’re doing big features. As an app developer who has to compete with them, I’m kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco grumbly. But as a fan of podcasts, that’s great because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re still the biggest podcast player by a pretty good margin. It’s kind of questionable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether you should count YouTube or not, that’s arguable, but Apple Podcasts is huge.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco For them to be really putting in some pretty innovative features recently, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco noteworthy. And it kind of shows too, when Apple has competition
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in an area that they’ve been complacent in for a long time, they usually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rise to the challenge and do pretty good work. So more areas of competition
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for Apple tends to be better for Apple and its customers.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Hmm. What were we talking about? ATP Store. Yes. ATP.FM slash store.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Check out your member page to get your bespoke discount code if you are a member. If you’re not, do ATP.FM
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash join. Thank you very much for indulging us. This is the last time you will hear about merch, as far as we plan
⏹️ ▶️ Casey anyway, until 2026.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And good luck with that, Chapter Marker Apple Podcasts.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Seriously. What were we talking about? We can’t even keep track. Good luck AI!
MBP design started at M1
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let’s do some follow up and we have to start with a correction about the current MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro design. John, which one of us said this wrong and do we have to fire them?
⏹️ ▶️ John That was me. I was trying to think of how how long the
⏹️ ▶️ John M1 was in the various parts. Was it? No. How long how long the current
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware design for laptops existed? Like the boxy kind of I don’t I don’t know what you call
⏹️ ▶️ John it. I don’t have a good name for it, but the way the MacBook Pros look. And I said that it was like M2 through M5.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I was wrong as Ben Madison points out the MacBook Pro got its current form factor in the M1 generation not the
⏹️ ▶️ John M2 I was remembering the plain old MacBook which came in the Intel
⏹️ ▶️ John Form factor the same one the Intel chip came in but when they released the MacBook Pros there was in fact an M1
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro and M1 Max version of that. So thank you for the correction, Ben.
That Mac Pro hope… wasn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, we need to really sell apparently some more Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Believe shirts because things are not looking good in Mac Pro land. John, I’m sorry,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell me what’s going on here.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, last episode there was a, I forget who posted, Brendan somebody had posted something
⏹️ ▶️ John about, and to the credit of that person, they didn’t imply that this meant that there was Mac Pro stuff coming, but
⏹️ ▶️ John they posted the name of a constant that they found in Xcode to 26.1 beta 3
⏹️ ▶️ John and it was CPU family arm hedra hidra and we had talked about that in the past as a possible
⏹️ ▶️ John code name for a Mac Pro level chip. Luna is here to throw some cold water on that
⏹️ ▶️ John idea. They write Apple’s internal chip code nomenclature dictates
⏹️ ▶️ John that the H17G which was the the number associated with that constant
⏹️ ▶️ John is in fact the base m5 not some hypothetical M5 Extreme. The nomenclature is as
⏹️ ▶️ John follows. It’s H, then a generation, and then a variant. Generation is the same as the A-series
⏹️ ▶️ John year minus one, and the variant is P for the A-series chips, G for
⏹️ ▶️ John the A-something X, A-something Z, and M-something chips, S for the M-something
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, C for the M-something Max, D for the M-something Ultra, and X for the
⏹️ ▶️ John M-something Pro, Max, and Ultra. Yes, they’ve reused some letters from multiple chips. Can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you imagine the AI transcribing this?
⏹️ ▶️ John So for some examples, the A11 is H10P because it’s the A number minus one and
⏹️ ▶️ John P for the A blank chips. A12X is H11G. A14 is H13P.
⏹️ ▶️ John M1 is H13G. M2 Pro is H14S. Those are
⏹️ ▶️ John how, that’s how the code names go. And the GPUs use the same naming except they prefix with G instead of H.
⏹️ ▶️ John I looked up some more chip code names and stuff. Because the time I did this,
⏹️ ▶️ John Xcode 26.1 RC is out. Now 26.1 full is out, which we’ll talk about in a second.
⏹️ ▶️ John But we’ll put in the show notes the path to some files that are part of Xcode that you can look at if you have Xcode 26.1.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you will find some more constants and code names here. So to give
⏹️ ▶️ John some examples, H17G, Hydra is seemingly the plain M5. There’s also one called
⏹️ ▶️ John TUPAI2Pi that I think is the A18 according to this nomenclature.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then there is H18P Thera, which I think is the A19 Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John It’s tricky, we’ll put another link to Apple code named wiki page that
⏹️ ▶️ John has a bunch of chip names in it. It’s sad that there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John still no Mac Pro caliber chip code name rumor, anything, anywhere
⏹️ ▶️ John ever for this year or for next, but that’s the way it is. I did see the
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 Ultra rumor, but again, the ultra will be in the Mac studio, presumably, and that’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John a Mac Pro caliber chip. So yeah, at this point, we will stop selling
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro Believe shirts simply because nobody wants them anymore. And still Apple will not have done anything about
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac Pro. That’s a sad state of affairs.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They stopped believing.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, you’re supposed to not. The song says don’t. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey day. That’s just the way it is, John. and things will never be the same.
Backward-compatible app icons
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, you have some more bad news. Tell me about Xcode 26.1. Yes,
⏹️ ▶️ John bad on me for not paying attention to the Xcode beta. I’m like, oh, well, whatever. There’s nothing wrong with the Xcode 26.0.1
⏹️ ▶️ John that I’ve been using. Xcode 26.1 comes out. I’m sure it’ll be fine, whatever. Nope.
⏹️ ▶️ John I’d forgotten all about this stupidity with the icons in Tahoe and apparently
⏹️ ▶️ John also in iOS, from what I hear. To review, when Tahoe came out, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John insisted that everybody make Tahoe style icons that can be tinted and turn dark
⏹️ ▶️ John and light and They want you to make them this new icon composer app where you sort of make a bunch of layers and you can
⏹️ ▶️ John use bitmaps Or vector graphics in the layers imply and apply glassy effects to them and do all
⏹️ ▶️ John sorts of stuff And it’s so that you can do different icon styles Across all their OS’s you can make the icons
⏹️ ▶️ John look clear You can have dark mode and light mode and you don’t have to draw all these separate icons You just kind of make this
⏹️ ▶️ John vector definition file with bitmaps and vectors and it makes the icons out of it
⏹️ ▶️ John and with my apps I Begrudgingly made these stupid ugly
⏹️ ▶️ John icons for Tahoe for all my apps But on pre-Tahoe versions of macOS I wanted all my
⏹️ ▶️ John old icons to be there because the Tahoe icons in addition to being ugly look very different than the pre-Tahoe Icons,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I wanted the Tahoe icons if you’re running on Tahoe But that very same app if you
⏹️ ▶️ John put it on a pre-Tahoe version of macOS I want it to look like how it used to with the old icons
⏹️ ▶️ John And it was very painful for me to figure out a way to do that I didn’t actually figure out someone figured out online and I just copied
⏹️ ▶️ John what they did But a bunch of developers were struggling with this problem because it seemed like an obvious thing that we want to do again
⏹️ ▶️ John The WWDC session where they’re like adopt these new icons for Tahoe I fully expected them to say here’s how you
⏹️ ▶️ John get these new icons on Tahoe And of course you want your old icons to appear on earlier versions. Nope. They never said that
⏹️ ▶️ John they did not provide a way to Do it someone found an undocumented flag to some command-line tool. That’s part of Xcode They
⏹️ ▶️ John could do it with some weird workaround and that’s what I did and that’s how I shipped my apps Xcode 26.1
⏹️ ▶️ John broke that so that system that we were all using that some clever person figured out to make it so that our
⏹️ ▶️ John icons Look like the old icons the old OS the new icons and new OS doesn’t work anymore Both on
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac OS and according to people who have written to me and mastered on also iOS is the same exact deal
⏹️ ▶️ John We were all using the same workaround and now it just plain doesn’t work anymore I filed bugs
⏹️ ▶️ John against it. Apple said working as designed. I filed an enhancement request It says it would be great if you provided us for
⏹️ ▶️ John with an official supported way To show the new icons of the new OS and the old icons in the old OS
⏹️ ▶️ John no reply And so now I’m kind of stuck not being able to upgrade Xcode I’m just
⏹️ ▶️ John sticking with Xcode 26.0.1 and I will keep using that until I can’t anymore
⏹️ ▶️ John Because if I build my app with 26.1 it will break all my icons on the old
⏹️ ▶️ John OS and make them all look like the new ugly ones. I’m sad about this. This is dumb. Squircle Jail is dumb.
⏹️ ▶️ John This OS will go down in history as one of the most user hostile and developer hostile
⏹️ ▶️ John icon experiences in the history of Apple. Bad show.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I can also say too, like the position it puts you in as a developer in this context, users
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are not upgrading to the 26 OSs don’t want these icons. they actually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco oftentimes hate this icon style. And
⏹️ ▶️ John they don’t fit, like whether you like it or not, they don’t fit with the old OS. The old OS doesn’t look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. Right, and it forces you, like, and it’s worse on iOS, honestly, but it certainly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not great on the Mac either. On iOS, we never had a choice. Like if you had a 26 icon, you had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to make a, you had to let iOS 18 and earlier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use like a statically rendered version of your 26 icon that had like a baked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in gloss on certain corners to the point where all fall, I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been fielding emails from people saying that my icon is broken and it looks like a rendering
⏹️ ▶️ Marco error on iOS 18. I
⏹️ ▶️ John only know about this from what people said, but the reason people were reporting to me that 26.4 wasn’t broken on iOS is I believe
⏹️ ▶️ John the hack that I was using and that James Thompson uses and that everyone else is using did work on iOS.
⏹️ ▶️ John You could with this special flag and configuration change, You could make it so that
⏹️ ▶️ John when you ran on iOS 18, it showed the old icon and you ran on 26, it showed the new one.
⏹️ ▶️ John understanding. I don’t have personal experience with it, but that’s what I believe I am told by people who have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco me. Oh, that would have been great. Cause I’ve still like, I have so many problems. Like frankly, I can’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wait until I can drop iOS 18 support because the testing burden between the two, because they’re so different.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And like every screen, like when I’ve changed anything, I have to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much testing and custom layout for one or the other OS. because the size of the controls are all different. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the metrics, the behaviors of controls are different between the two. So I can’t wait
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to drop support for 18 just because it’s so much work doing anything. But the reality
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is I still have to support 18 because it’s still, I think something like a third
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or maybe 40% of my users are on 18. So we’re still in this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dual OS world for a while, probably for at least a few more months, if not longer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And Apple could do a few small things to make that much easier, and they just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco don’t. Because they don’t care. Like, you know, Apple’s internal developers don’t face these problems. They have, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, different setups, different tooling, different situations.
⏹️ ▶️ John And their apps don’t have to, are never going to run on an older version of OS. So like the Calendar
⏹️ ▶️ John app that comes with Tahoe, that Calendar app is never gonna run on
⏹️ ▶️ John Sequoia, right? It’s because it’s like, that Sequoia comes with its own Calendar app. So they don’t face this problem. but not only
⏹️ ▶️ John do they not face this problem, someone has apparently decided inside Apple that they don’t want developers to be
⏹️ ▶️ John able to do this. And the fact that we found a workaround then they just broke it. Like when I filed it as a bug, they said, “‘Nope,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s how we want it to behave,’ essentially they closed it as behaves correctly, which is why I filed an enhancement request. After that,
⏹️ ▶️ John it said, I would like a way to do this.” And Apple’s like, “‘Nope, we don’t want you to have a way
⏹️ ▶️ John to do this. We don’t want you to be able to show the Tahoe icon on Tahoe and the pre-Tahoe icon on pre-Tahoe.’”
⏹️ ▶️ John Why the hell they don’t want that? I have no frigging idea. It doesn’t make any sense to me. It seems like they’d want
⏹️ ▶️ John their apps to look like they fit in with the old OS and the new but some person is
⏹️ ▶️ John making a very bad decision and enforcing it.
Sponsor: Zapier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this episode by Zapier. Zapier is how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you actually deliver on your AI strategy, not just talk about it. So look, there’s AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everywhere these days. There’s AI trends and hype and all these different tools popping up,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but talking about trends doesn’t help you actually use AI for your work. For that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need the right tools. You need Zapier. Zapier is how you break the hype
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and put AI to work across your actual work and your actual company for real. So Zapier
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has this AI orchestration platform, which brings the power of AI to any workflow.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you can do more of what actually matters. And doesn’t matter what model you want to use, you can connect the top models,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco chat, GPT, Claude, whatever you want to use to the tools that you and your team are already
⏹️ ▶️ Marco using. So you can add AI exactly where you need it without changing tools or platforms. So whether
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s AI powered workflows, autonomous agents, even things like customer chatbots, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever else you can orchestrate, you can build that with Zapier. And you don’t have to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a nerd. Zapier is for everyone, whether you are technical like our listeners, or whether you’re not.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So you can tell people about Zapier, you can say, hey, you have this automation that you wanna do, or this tool you wanna use AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with, connect Zapier to it, you can trust them that they’ll be able to do it without being a nerd, like you and me probably.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So, teams have already automated over 300 million AI tasks using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Zapier. You can join them, join the millions of businesses, transforming how they work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with Zapier and AI. Get started for free by visiting zapier.com slash
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP. That’s Z-A-P-I-E-R dot com slash ATP.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Zapier dot com slash ATP. Thank you so much to Zapier for sponsoring our show.
Electron vs. Tahoe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey right, tell me about your Tahoe experience, John, with regard to Electron apps.
⏹️ ▶️ John Talked about that in an earlier episode. We were asking is it safe to upgrade to Tahoe? We mentioned that there’s a bug
⏹️ ▶️ John in Electron where they were using a private API and it was slowing things down. And a new version of Electron came
⏹️ ▶️ John out that fixed that. But of course, every app that embeds Electron, which is like a web rendering engine lots of Mac apps use,
⏹️ ▶️ John would have to be updated. there was this detector app that we link to that will, it’s like an
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple script that will just search your system and find all the apps that use electron and check the version of electron they’re
⏹️ ▶️ John using and tell you here are all the apps that have the bug that you have installed. And when I ran it
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m still, I’m still running the earlier version of Mac West. Um, when I ran it at found 23 apps
⏹️ ▶️ John that I had on my Mac that had the bad version, a non fixed version
⏹️ ▶️ John of electron. So were I to upgrade to Tahoe, which to be clear, I have not, but worry to upgrade to Tahoe, I have 23
⏹️ ▶️ John apps that if I was running any of them, it could cause this slowdown system-wide slowdown So I went
⏹️ ▶️ John through and I updated all the apps I went through all 23 of those apps and tried to get the latest for it Make sure I had
⏹️ ▶️ John the latest version of everything Some of them were already updated because they’re like Mac App Store apps or whatever and I have auto update
⏹️ ▶️ John on but other ones had to Go download After that, here’s what I’m left with and I deleted some apps too that were just like old
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff and I was kind of surprised that this has been you know going on since last
⏹️ ▶️ John the early last month and And here we are in November and still it’s a problem.
⏹️ ▶️ John Here’s the apps in my system that I have the latest version and they still have the bug. Discord, which
⏹️ ▶️ John is a pretty popular app and uses Electron pretty extensively. I can’t believe they haven’t fixed it. Dropbox,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I mean, I don’t know how much Dropbox even uses Electron. Maybe it wouldn’t come up because it’s used in some screen
⏹️ ▶️ John that I don’t have on the, you know, some dialogue that I don’t have on the screen a lot. Who knows? Keybase,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is an encryption thing. Postman, which is like a thing that does HTTP requests. HTTP ie
⏹️ ▶️ John which I think is another HTTP proxy thing Microsoft Teams classic not that I’m even using
⏹️ ▶️ John that but come on Microsoft That thing that analyzes your messages that I talked about
⏹️ ▶️ John wrecked on rectus that you probably shouldn’t run because it could leak all your messages To to whoever but
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway that app is not updated and finally Macintosh JS, which is a web-based
⏹️ ▶️ John JavaScript old classic Mac OS emulator Macintosh JS I
⏹️ ▶️ John Whatever that person is if that person’s ever gonna update that app again, but discord and Dropbox come on
⏹️ ▶️ John and Microsoft Teams So yeah, not that I was planning on upgraded into Tao, but certainly I’m not
⏹️ ▶️ John upgrading until These apps update because again it you know electron fix the bug But these
⏹️ ▶️ John apps that use electron need to put out a new version that builds with the fixed version of electron
⏹️ ▶️ John So, not a great situation.
26.1 clipboard-history retention
⏹️ ▶️ Casey However, we finally have to turn these frowns upside down and in Mac OS Tahoe 26.1 you get more clipboard history
⏹️ ▶️ Casey options. Reading from Mac Rumors, in system settings spotlight
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in Tahoe 26.1 there are new clipboard history controls allowing users to decide how long copied items remain accessible.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Previously spotlight could optionally retain clipboard contents for up to eight hours, but the latest update expands that flexibility with three
⏹️ ▶️ Casey options, 30 minutes, eight hours, or seven days. There’s also a new clear clipboard history button.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, that’s a nice enhancement. I continue to think the main downside to the built-in clipboard
⏹️ ▶️ John manager is that it takes more keystrokes than third-party ones. I’m continuing to use Pastebot, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I love that this is built into the OS, and I wish it was built into iOS as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I’m still using LaunchBar’s clipboard history. And like, I don’t, like LaunchBar itself,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rest of it, I use almost none of the features of these launcher apps. They can do a million different
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things. All of them can. And for me, like all of the app launching stuff, like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mainly use it as, you know, a very basic version of what Quicksilver used to do of just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the name of the app. Even Spotlight has been able to do that for years. Like let me type the first few
⏹️ ▶️ Marco letters of an app and launch it and clipboard history. And it’s wonderful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that, but like the ergonomics of LaunchBary clipboard history
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are so built into my fingers. Like whenever I’ve tried to use anything else, just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like minor differences just get me and I can’t do it. So I’m still happy to stick with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco LaunchBar until, you know, there’s some reason why I can’t. I also love using LaunchBar to type
⏹️ ▶️ Marco emoji into messages and stuff. Because you can like you can have it index emoji names and then you can just, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hit command space and you know, grimace and enter like there, bam, grimace face. Like you can,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I know there’s other ways to do that, but without having like an Apple keyboard with the emoji button, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not super convenient to do in most other ways. So I’m still happy with LaunchBar and that’s,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m glad Tahoe is bringing this to the mainstream and I think Tahoe bringing clipboard history
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like first party is probably also a good sign for iOS, John, in the sense that like maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the next couple iOS releases, maybe Apple brings it at least to the iPad and maybe to the phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in some way. I don’t know how that would work, but I bet it will come to the iPad pretty soon.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m still on Alfred and I don’t have any particular compulsion to leave Alfred behind.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And it’s very much similar to what Marko was saying. I use a little bit of Alfred’s fancy bits, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not a ton. And certainly there’s a lot of fancy bits that I don’t touch.
M5 MBP speed tests
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Uh, we’ve got some speed tests that have been done on the M5 MacBook Pro. Uh, we are
⏹️ ▶️ Casey largely going to be talking about a Max Tech video about this, which we’ll put in the show notes. Uh, the Blackmagic
⏹️ ▶️ Casey disk speed test was fascinating. The read speeds on the M4 MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro, uh, 2031. What is this like, uh, megabits per second or something like that?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It’s whatever the unit is. It doesn’t really matter.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I forget what the number is, but I think the units is like, uh, maybe megabytes per second. Anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Anyway, so 2031 for the M4, 6,323 for the M5 MacBook Pro. That is a 3.1X improvement.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Very, very, very impressive. The write speed, the M4, 3,300
⏹️ ▶️ Casey basically, the M5, 6,100. So that’s about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a 1.8 improvement, multiplier improvement. For Geekbench, Geekbench 6, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey CPU, M4, Single core, 3688, M5, 4263, so about 15% improvement.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Multi-core on the M4, just shy of 15,000. On the M5, a little shy of 18,000,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so that’s an improvement of about 20%. For
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the GPU using Metal, the M4 MacBook Pro, 57,000, excuse me. The M5 MacBook Pro, 76,000,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is an improvement of about 33%. The M4 Pro MacBook Pro is 79,000,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is about 3% faster than the M5, but that’s not a like for like chip. That’s the M4 Pro against
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the M5 vanilla. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I mean, these are great results, so, you know, 15 and 20% for single core and multi-core, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what we expect. The GPU is a little bit better at 30% improvement, but those disk scores, like I haven’t seen anyone
⏹️ ▶️ John define what has caused this, but I’m assuming it’s just basically more bandwidth. They probably doubled or tripled the bandwidth or
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever. That’s significant. And I wouldn’t say it as like, oh, it means that the M5 is so incredibly fast
⏹️ ▶️ John because again, the Blackmagic disk speed test, like do you have any workloads where you’re bottlenecked by like sequential IO?
⏹️ ▶️ John Probably not. But what this is doing is removing something that used
⏹️ ▶️ John to be lesser about the no suffix M series, like the plain old M4, the plain old M3.
⏹️ ▶️ John They apparently had a disk subsystem that was significantly less capable
⏹️ ▶️ John than the Pro and the Max, and of course the Ultra chips. that’s a big jump going three times
⏹️ ▶️ John faster in read speeds from the M4 to the M5 shows that they’ve just removed the bottleneck. So again, it’s not
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna make your, anything you do three times faster, but if you ever do have
⏹️ ▶️ John to do some heavy IO, you will no longer be bottlenecked because you got merely got the plain
⏹️ ▶️ John no suffix M thing, which is just gonna make the M5 MacBook Air an even better machine
⏹️ ▶️ John when that comes out.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And also like these CPU results are awesome. Like for reference,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the M5 MacBook Pro compared to my M3 Max MacBook
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro, it is like, it’s like a 30% faster single core and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco multi-core, it’s only a little bit slower. It’s like, what about 10% slower multi-core.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s the base M5 against my M3 Max. So once the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco M5 gets its bigger chip siblings, I think this is gonna be a really strong generation.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yep, time marches on.
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn’t talk about this with the Mac Pro stuff, but like, obviously no Mac Pro stuff is happening this year.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it’s pretty obvious. And I know I said I was gonna buy a new computer this year, but I’m failing.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco No you’re not. I’ve failed.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey It’s too late now, I can’t,
⏹️ ▶️ John like it’s too late. I can’t buy an M, with knowing that the M, like what you just said, here’s the vanilla
⏹️ ▶️ John M5. It’s the only one we got for reasons we discussed in the past episode. Like they’re supposedly using some new TSMC tech
⏹️ ▶️ John for the Pro and the Max M5 and it’s not ready yet. So they’re coming next year, right? But you see what the base
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 is like, you think I can’t buy an M4 base computer now, it’s too late, it’s too late. So now
⏹️ ▶️ John I’ve got my eye on like an M5 Max, Max Studio next year, because I’m probably not
⏹️ ▶️ John gonna wanna spend on an Ultra in a studio form factor. So I’ll get an M5 Max,
⏹️ ▶️ John Max Studio, and it will be amazing and I will like it and be happy with it, but it’s gonna be a lot more waiting
⏹️ ▶️ John for me, unfortunately. You’re getting the Ultra. Yeah, why would you not
⏹️ ▶️ John Ultra? I don’t think I just, I don’t know. I like, I will see what the Ultra is like, but like, I don’t know
⏹️ ▶️ John if I would want, the Ultra is so expensive and it’s not going to be,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey John, you spent $15,000 on your Mac Pro. There’s no Ultra that is so
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John expensive. I know,
⏹️ ▶️ John but when I got it, it was so much faster than any other Mac and GPU for
⏹️ ▶️ John performance, just tremendous. I mean, it’s the Intel age, like the Intel Macs, especially
⏹️ ▶️ John like the laptops and stuff, but they’re integrated or even when they had a screen, They were terrible. This was, the Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John was so much faster. And if the Mac Pro was just an ultra in a bigger case, that goes away.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I don’t know. Anyway, that’s my current plan. I’ve failed, 2024 was
⏹️ ▶️ John a failure for me buying a new computer. I wanted to, I thought there would be some news that
⏹️ ▶️ John would say, well, I got to give up. I’m got to get the M4 Max, Max Studio. But I just,
⏹️ ▶️ John at that time, there were still rumors that the Mac Pro was going to come out this year and now it’s not. So
⏹️ ▶️ John M5 Max, Max Studio is the tentative plan for whenever the hell that chip comes out
⏹️ ▶️ John And by the way, as for the M5, like the single core, people keep touting this as
⏹️ ▶️ John the fastest single core speed ever measured, which is true within the realm of Max. But if you go to Geekbench, you
⏹️ ▶️ John find all these overclockers and stuff who have like whatever, you know, AMD CPUs with like a
⏹️ ▶️ John liquid nitrogen on top of them that have like five times the score of this or whatever. But yeah, I would say for
⏹️ ▶️ John like a consumer level laptop CPU, the single core score
⏹️ ▶️ John is the best in the entire world. And yeah, it’s not news that they, you know, 10, 15% every
⏹️ ▶️ John year keeps going up and up. Yeah. M5 is kind of embarrassing. The M3 Max,
⏹️ ▶️ John but we can’t wait for those M5 suffix chips in spring of next year.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I know you won’t listen to me, but what you should do is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco instead of getting like the the absolute amazing ultra Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco class thing, like every single, every what, 10 years, nine years?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what year am I in? Is it 2019? I got it kind of early 20, this is like half that. I’m only at five or six years. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John and you’re not done yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because no one’s saying the Mac Studio is coming out in January. Like it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably gonna be June or something. So what you should probably do, especially
⏹️ ▶️ Marco since- get a Mac Mini. Well
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John maybe but like amazing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think I think what might be worth considering for you is instead of getting the most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ridiculous GPU decked out thing every you know nine or eight or seven
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years get like a more reasonable configuration every like four or five
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years or what like shorten the timeline and lower the ceiling because you’re not gonna
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be playing PC games on it anymore like that era is
⏹️ ▶️ John I know that’s that’s I told you this would be speculative GPU power
⏹️ ▶️ John and I’m still and like look it’s not for me to buy I don’t think I’m gonna buy an ultra because that doesn’t have enough
⏹️ ▶️ John GPU power to even be worth it is it’s so expensive and honestly the real the real thing we’re gonna spend all my
⏹️ ▶️ John money is a stupid 8 terabyte SSD so I’m waiting for whatever like when the NAND industry does their next like doubling of
⏹️ ▶️ John density that makes that will make the 8 terabyte one slightly less expensive or
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco maybe I’ll try to go third party
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can by the way you can get the 16 terabyte model now for only $4,600 more. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s great. Like I said when we talked about it, I’m looking into the third-party ones. If
⏹️ ▶️ John those third-party companies keep up with the little modules for the Mac Studio, maybe I’ll get third-party 8TB
⏹️ ▶️ John SSD for Mac Studio, although I don’t want to open that thing up. It’s so
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey hard to open. Wait,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I’m sorry. You can put a third-party SSD in your machine, but I’m not allowed to put
⏹️ ▶️ Casey third-party RAM in any of my computers?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Unfair. Well, I mean, when you were doing
⏹️ ▶️ John that, RAM wasn’t a whole jillion times the price of the industry standard. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it used to be not this bad. Apple RAM was always more expensive, but it hasn’t been as bad as it is now. And yeah, it’s,
⏹️ ▶️ John I don’t know, we’ll see. I might just buy the Apple 8 terabyte. That’s why I’m hoping, I forget, I
⏹️ ▶️ John haven’t kept up with when the next doubling is, but it’s, I think it’s coming soon. By the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way, for the record, if you like, if you configure a Mac studio right now with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the highest end processor, 256 gigs of RAM, 16 terabyte storage. You’re a little under 12
⏹️ ▶️ Marco grand. How much was your Mac Pro? Yeah, similar price.
⏹️ ▶️ John was considerably more capable than that Mac Studio. That was also a lot of inflation ago.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know, I know. It was more expensive because of inflation, but like just
⏹️ ▶️ John so much more like easily upgradable. Things can be swapped in and out of it. Everything can be upgraded.
⏹️ ▶️ John And the Mac Studio is, despite those third-party modules, it’s not even easy to get that stupid thing open and get in
⏹️ ▶️ John there, and Apple does not want you to be doing that. So it’s not really what I want, but it’s going to
⏹️ ▶️ John probably end up what I’m going to get.
Sponsor: Squarespace
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this week by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you’re just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to time, all in one place and all on your terms. Now Squarespace is an amazing service.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve been using them myself and been recommending them to others for years. And this is one of those awesome times throughout
⏹️ ▶️ Marco our sponsorship with them over the years that I can actually say I just helped somebody make a new Squarespace site
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this week. I’ve done this a lot over the years because it’s great because what you can do is even somebody who’s not a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nerd, you can just tell them, hey, try Squarespace.com slash ATP, of course,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they can do it themselves. It’s not nerdy. It’s not technical. There’s no software.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There’s no configuration. There’s no coding. They can do it all themselves, which frees up both of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you. They can do their work without having to go through you as the gatekeeper, as the nerd, And you as the nerd don’t have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to babysit their website for them and don’t have to do everything for them. So it’s great. There’s all these different features in Squarespace.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco They have this amazing design intelligence system. I got to see this and use this for the first time. And it’s amazing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you can do in so little time and so little work. They kind of ask you what you want to do with your site, what you care
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about, what kind of blocks you want to include, what kind of pages. And then they give you this whole template that you can then customize to look the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way you want. And it’s just amazing. It’s so easy to use. They have a million features for businesses
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well. campaigns, obviously checkouts and payments and digital goods, physical goods,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco virtual virtual stuff, time slots. It’s a great service. So here’s what you do. When you need to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a website for you, your business or someone else, go to Squarespace.com slash ATP, start
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a free trial, you can build the whole site in trial mode, see how it works for you. When you’re ready to launch, go back there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace.com slash ATP for 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Squarespace.com slash ATP for 10% off your first purchase. Thank you so much to Squarespace
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for being awesome and for sponsoring our show.
Vision Pro Developer Strap (2)
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I got sent a new developer strap. What is the official name for this? I don’t know. The developer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey strap mark two or whatever. And I had the occasion to go to a local library this morning
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and do my ATP prep that I usually do on Wednesday mornings instead of going to Wegmans. I went to the library
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I did that in no small part so I could reserve a study room so I wouldn’t be out in the middle of everything. So I could
⏹️ ▶️ Casey try doing a Mac virtual display with Vision Pro. It is incredible
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with the developer strap. There’s almost no latency. I feel like the image
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is great. I know everyone has conflicting opinions about that. I’m not here to re-litigate it, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything went really, really well. I don’t think that the developer strap is absolutely necessary and it is quite
⏹️ ▶️ Casey expensive. It’s something like $400 or something like that, I believe.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But it did work out quite well. And if you are someone who lives in Mac virtual display,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’ve talked to a few people that are like that. I do not do that personally, but I know that there are people
⏹️ ▶️ Casey who do. Then I strongly recommend the new developer strap. It’s quite good. I didn’t do any like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speed tests or anything like that. I didn’t run any performance tests. I just used it and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey job well done. The other nice thing is the new strap. I know everyone is raving
⏹️ ▶️ Casey about it and I will repeat what I said a week or two ago. The new dual knit band, whatever they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey call it is incredible. It is so, so much more comfortable than
⏹️ ▶️ Casey any version of, of strap that I have tried previously, really, really good. Um, one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey curious thing that I noted, and I’m, I’m, I be curious for the three of you that have vision pros,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you could try this, so I’m on 26.1 on the, you know, released version of 26.1. And for whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Casey reason, and this is not the point, but for some reason, as I was playing music and as
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sound effects were happening and whatnot, I I noticed that the balance was somewhere, I would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey say, like 60 to 70% to the left channel. I have no idea why,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have no idea how. This is with both the, what do they call them? The audio pods or whatever
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that are on the stems or the legs of the Vision Pro. Again, my terminology’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco all wrong. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sorry. Sticks. Okay, there you go. So anyway, on the straps, I guess, strictly speaking, if it’s a developer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey strap. But anyways, it’s both those speakers in there and my AirPods Pro Mark III,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I was getting like weird balance issues where, again, it was like halfway between
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the center and the left channel. So I was getting some out of the right, but not a lot. So I was casting about trying to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey figure out what I can do about this. And I went into accessibility, audio and visual balance. And I thought, oh, I will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slide the balance, you know, 60% of the way to the right to kind of fix this. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also tried, or I also wondered if maybe this had something to do with spatial audio. Maybe that is what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was happening. But when I tried to turn the balance to in between center
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and right, I could only slide all the way to the right or all the way to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the left. And the little numeral at the top in between L and R showed 1.00. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know what’s going on here, but it sure seemed like where it was expecting to have a float
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or something, or a double or something like that, it was only taking an integer because my options were zero or one,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or negative one, I guess, strictly speaking, which I thought was very funny. I’d be curious for the three of you that have Vision Pros
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you run into this. But the point of bringing this up was just that the developer strap is very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey good. And if you have $400 to light a flame, I recommend it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Additionally, I have upgraded to Tahoe. I got, or I had a conversation with Jason
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Snell where he basically said to me in a very, very kind way, what the hell are you doing? Go ahead and upgrade. This
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is literally your job. And I was like, you know what, Jason, you’re right. So I upgraded.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I don’t know if you need to do it on your main machine. Can’t you do what I did and have it on an alternate machine
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey boot disk or something? What
⏹️ ▶️ Casey alternate machine? I have my Mac. I mean, I have it on my Mac, or I don’t have it on my Mac mini. I have a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Mac mini, an M1 Mac mini, that I suppose I could have done it on.
Nanotexture
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don’t use that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you missed an opportunity to get another laptop. This was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The thought crossed my mind. The thought crossed my mind. I need this
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey for my work.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh gosh. Oh, now he’s holding out for the M5 MacBook Air
⏹️ ▶️ Casey too. Yeah, right. Actually, as we record this, I don’t recall where I saw it, but apparently the M4 like base level
⏹️ ▶️ Casey MacBook Air is like $750 or something like that, which is still a lot of money,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John but oh man, that’s tempting.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, that’s still
⏹️ ▶️ John like that’s the thing about like the MacBook Air. until they fix the screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John I know the M5 is gonna be better, and if you’re a tech nerd, you’re like, oh, I wouldn’t, I want three times better read speed,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you’re never gonna notice that on a MacBook Air. The M4 MacBook Air and the M3 MacBook Air are just amazing machines. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John such a good, just no-nonsense, simple machine. Its main weakness is that it doesn’t have a good screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John but neither will the M5 one, according to the rumors, so don’t worry about that. So if you get a good deal on an M4 one, snatch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say, though, Casey, remember my nanotexture screen? Remember how nice that looked?
⏹️ ▶️ John Ugh, shh. Margot trying to upsell. Get out of that MacBook Air class and
⏹️ ▶️ John come up to a machine with a fan.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The MacBook Air would be great if it had nanotexture.
⏹️ ▶️ John And a better screen, HDR, you know, mini LED, blah, blah, blah. The MacBook Air is
⏹️ ▶️ John always kind of getting the short end of the stick on screen, which again, it’s the lowest end machine. I get it, it makes sense. Although I do wonder
⏹️ ▶️ John what will happen, we talked about this before, when the low-end laptop with the phone chip in
⏹️ ▶️ John it comes out, Um, are they that one surely will get the cheapest of the cheap screen.
⏹️ ▶️ John So does that one become the placeholder for like, no, you can’t have many LED for the next five years. And does that allow
⏹️ ▶️ John the MacBook Air? Remember how long we had to wait for the MacBook Air to get retina? I feel like that now with like waiting for
⏹️ ▶️ John it to get out of its LCD non HDR screen. It’s kind of a long wait.
⏹️ ▶️ John But yeah, the low end, uh, I forget what the rumor was. A a 19 pro 18 pro.
⏹️ ▶️ John I forget what the rumors were. But anyway, when that laptop comes out, I feel like the
⏹️ ▶️ John MacBook Air should have permission to get a good decent screen with including a nanotexture option for a hundred bucks.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tell you what though, I actually, I went to an Apple store this morning. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco breezing through Grand Central and I stopped at the Apple store there. And I got to see for the first time
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPad Pro nanotexture screen option because they have it on display.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is so nice. And now to the point where I’m like, I want nanotexture on all of my screens.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now the iPad is like my least used Apple device. And so it does not make sense for me to buy a new iPad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But just for the sake of it, I looked and I’m like, well, you know, my iPad Pro is a few years old. What would it cost me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get a new iPad Pro set up? Now, what that would mean is I would also need to get the new Magic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Keyboard, because I have the old keyboard folio. I would need to get a new Apple Pencil Pro. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because the nanotexture is only available on the one and two terabyte
⏹️ ▶️ Marco models, To get the minute and of course I need cellular. So to get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco one terabyte cellular nanotexture, magic keyboard and pencil pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the 11 inch, it’s like $2,300. Like, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t use my iPad quite that much. So that I’m not going to
⏹️ ▶️ John And people always think that, I mean, obviously you’re getting killed on the SSD, which is Apple’s stupid, you know, shoving all the margins
⏹️ ▶️ John of the SSD. but I will point out that that weird ass floppy laptop you have has a better screen
⏹️ ▶️ John than any of Apple’s laptops. Yeah, it’s OLED. And has a processor that is faster in single
⏹️ ▶️ John core than any of Apple’s laptops, except for the plain M5 MacBook. So
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s, you know, in the Apple realm, it is not excessively priced because
⏹️ ▶️ John if you were to configure any comparably capable similar machine
⏹️ ▶️ John from Apple, you would get similar prices. but that’s, you know, you don’t want all that. You want
⏹️ ▶️ John to mix and match. I just want nanotexture. I don’t care if it has a terabyte. Give me the lowest possible storage, but
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s not a thing they offer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and it’s so frustrating. It’s like nanotexture is so nice. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco once you get used to it, you want it everywhere. I’m so glad I don’t like it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Oh my God. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will never buy another non-nanotexture screen if that product is offered with nanotexture.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, at the Apple Store, they’re constantly cleaning those screens though. How do you feel about nanotexture with finger
⏹️ ▶️ John spooge all over it?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All of my touch screens are always covered in finger stuff. I know, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s harder to clean off nanotexture and it shows up more. I’m not a nanotexture fan.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I don’t think it does show up more. So right now on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPads, like right now on my iPad, on my kind of older iPad Pro, I have one of those,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John is it? Paperlike.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I don’t use paperlike anymore. There’s like an AstroPad cover or something like that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s a little bit easier to apply and has a little bit different finish. And so for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years now, before that I used the paper-like ones. I’ve used these kind of like textured screen covers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the iPad because I like the way that they both feel and the way the pencil feels on them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way better than the flat, slick glass. And so I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco used those all the time and they all like nanotexture. They all show smears and fingerprints
⏹️ ▶️ Marco differently and they’re a little bit harder to wipe off. but they’re not impossible to wipe off. You just, you know, you wipe them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco across your pants or whatever you have available. You take a cloth or whatever it is, like you get it done, it’s fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s like when people say like, oh, don’t buy a white car because it looks dirty all the time. Like every car I’ve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever had looks dirty all the time in every color. Like that’s just cars, like they just get dirty. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how touchscreens are. Touchscreens get fingerprints on them. And if you look at the wrong angle in the light, you’ll see
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the fingerprints, no matter what finish it is. I don’t think nanotexture is meaningfully different. I will say
⏹️ ▶️ Marco our friend Steve Trouton Smith recently got a Nanotexture iPad Pro and has been posting about it on Amazon
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here and there. And one thing Steve pointed out was that the pencil texture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on it, it feels closer to a remarkable. And I tested that today in the store.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was curious about that. That’s part of the reason why I wanted to see it. So I tested it and indeed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I had two iPads side by side, one with Nanotexture, one without. and the pencil texture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with nanotexture is way better. Night and day difference.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It wouldn’t surprise me if that’s why Apple added it to the high-end models. Not necessarily
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for like, you know, video producers, but maybe for people using the pencil, like high-end artists. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a huge difference and a huge improvement. And compared to using a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco paper-like or this AstroPad thing that I have, compared to using like a paper screen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco protector, it’s way more refined. It doesn’t have quite as much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like friction as a texture, but those screen protectors introduce
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way more blur to the screen image than the nanotexture itself does. Nanotexture itself, there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco honestly almost no blurring of the image. And you do get a little bit of that texture that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes a pretty big difference. So whenever I get a new iPad, that’s what I’m getting.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Even though it’s gonna cost as much as a MacBook Pro, I just will buy it less often, kind of like the opposite of what I just told
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John to do with his Mac Pro. But like, it’s, Nanotexture is so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. I will absolutely get that whenever it’s offered in a product line.
Upgraded to Tahoe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so back at the ranch, we’re gonna talk about, and I have upgraded
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my MacBook Pro, the upgrade went fine. My initial impressions
⏹️ ▶️ Casey after having used this for about 24 hours, the transparent menu bar,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s fine. Like I don’t have any strong feelings about it. However,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what in the actual hell is up with these folder icons? They are
⏹️ ▶️ John is happening? You can pick a different color for them that’s also loud.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Great, I’m so excited. But it’s a different color.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don’t know what I expected, but these are so much more vibrant
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and in your face, whereas I feel like a folder should, to a degree, not fade into the background,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but certainly be a lot less in your face. Don’t love that. Also, what
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did they do to our baby? What is, Finder Windows look
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bananas. Generally speaking, I actually don’t mind the look of this OS as much as I thought I would. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mostly think it’s pretty good, which I know is a relatively hot take. What
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did they do to Finder windows? There are so many different orbs at different
⏹️ ▶️ Casey depths and I can’t tell what’s where in terms of depth. I don’t care for it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But Casey, they’re spotlighting your content.
⏹️ ▶️ John Finder demonstrates most of the controls that have their appearance changed
⏹️ ▶️ John radically in Tahoe. So you’ve got sidebar, obviously, You’re talking about a sidebar finder window because that’s the kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of person you are. You’ve got toolbars, which also are changed a lot. You’ve got tab
⏹️ ▶️ John bars, which also are changed a lot if you have multiple tabs open. And that’s all combined into a single
⏹️ ▶️ John window. So you get to see how unharmonious
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey all those controls. First of
⏹️ ▶️ John all, you see how much those controls change because the sidebar is now inset and it’s got rounded corners and the tabs aren’t
⏹️ ▶️ John tabs anymore, they’re capsules. And the toolbar buttons are different. And you have a dark mode screenshot
⏹️ ▶️ John here. I think it’s worse than light mode because it looks like everything is overexposed and they have the weird drop shadows that have been toned down a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit. Yeah, it really highlights exactly how ugly and not
⏹️ ▶️ John space efficient and not harmonious. It’s just bad, I don’t like it. Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John and of course, I think part of the reason that the folder icons stand out so much is that the rest
⏹️ ▶️ John of the OS has been drained of all color and basically
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey bleached or in this
⏹️ ▶️ John case. I mean, in dark mode, people like it to be dark. Actually, I think this dark mode looks better in light mode, but
⏹️ ▶️ John switching to light mode and just everything looks like it’s, uh, bone bleached in the desert and everything is all completely
⏹️ ▶️ John white. And the only piece of color is your highlight color, whatever color you picked and your folder color. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John I said, I believe you can change the default folder color and you can also pick on a per folder
⏹️ ▶️ John basis the color you want a specific color folder to be with the labeling system,
⏹️ ▶️ John which then the doc will entirely ignore.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, and it’s funny you bring that up. So I want to back to that in just a second. But for the record, I am
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a grown up. And so I use my devices in light mode
⏹️ ▶️ Casey during the daytime and dark mode at nighttime. You heathens with the full-time dark mode, I don’t know what you’re doing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You’re lunatics. But nevertheless, so yes, the screenshot, which I’m about to discuss, I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did happen to take just a few minutes before recording. It was nighttime, so it’s a dark mode screenshot. But my initial,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, was because I saw Finder in light mode and I just, I don’t like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. Again, I actually think for the most part, this isn’t bad. Like Safari, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not stellar, but I was expected to be offended by the entire operating system. And I’m really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not. I am offended by Finder though. Finder’s real rough. But
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking of Finder and speaking of the sidebar, I use Synology Drive. We’ve talked about this many
⏹️ ▶️ Casey times in the the past. Synology Drive is kind of a bespoke
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Dropbox alike that among other things also will sync with Dropbox
⏹️ ▶️ Casey through other means, but that’s not really relevant. But when I put that in my sidebar,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is where I like it to be because this is effectively my Dropbox,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey everything in my sidebar looks, you know, muted and black and white
⏹️ ▶️ Casey except the Synology Drive folder, which is the icon for Synology
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Drive in the Squircle jail. I don’t know if this is something that I have done at some point during
⏹️ ▶️ Casey my time with this Mac, but I tried going in and doing the like customize
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this folder icon by putting a, even though it’s not really an emoji. I think they called an emoji on it. Uh, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that doesn’t seem to matter. It matters for like the main finder window, but to your point about the doc, it doesn’t
⏹️ ▶️ Casey affect the sidebar and finder. and finder. So if you have a mechanism by which I can make this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not look awful, I would love to hear it because I don’t want to remove this from my favorites
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on my sidebar. And I know, John, you’re about to say, just give it to the sidebar, but that’s also not happening.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But if I can make this not look awful, that would be great.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I’ve been trying to
⏹️ ▶️ John do the thing you were describing as the system in Tahoe, where you can just take a folder icon and give essentially a template image
⏹️ ▶️ John that it will stamp and emboss on the folder icon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about as well ago, like instead of you having to make a custom
⏹️ ▶️ John version of this, the system will do it for you, which is nice. Um, and presumably it will stay up to date,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, with as they change what the folders look like. But, uh, for this case, I would suggest that you,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, copy and paste the folder icon onto it, you know, like get info on it and just paste
⏹️ ▶️ John a plain folder, not, not like try to emboss it or put a thing or whatever, like essentially do a custom icon for it. Like you would
⏹️ ▶️ John do a custom icon for your hard drives, like my hard drive, it has a little picture link on it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Paste on, but instead of pasting on a custom icon, copy a folder icon and paste
⏹️ ▶️ John it on there. That won’t be sort of OS upgrade proof. So like when the next OS comes out, your drive will look
⏹️ ▶️ John like Tahoe, but you can try that. But the problem is, as you noted, the sidebar, I can’t see if you
⏹️ ▶️ John have any other folders in the sidebar, but things like, well, I guess you have a folder called Detritus,
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s a regular folder, right? It’s not showing the folder icon. How are folder icons are those dark blue things that you were
⏹️ ▶️ John complaining about? It’s showing essentially a template image. It’s like, I know this is a folder and I’m gonna ignore
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever icon this folder has because God forbid we honor the custom icon stuff that we had in our
⏹️ ▶️ John folders anywhere else in the Finder. I’m just gonna show my little, like it looks like
⏹️ ▶️ John an SF symbol or whatever, like a template image, just a line art drawing of a folder. Same
⏹️ ▶️ John thing with desktop, it’s a line art drawing of desktop downloads, does not look like your downloads folder. So if you’ve customized your downloads
⏹️ ▶️ John folder, Finder doesn’t care. It’s going to be a downward facing arrow and a circle, and it’s monochrome and so on and so forth.
⏹️ ▶️ John Then Synology Drive stands out because not only is it not a template image, but as you noted, it’s in squircle jail because
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple hates us all.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, and so when I tried copying and pasting, I tried just deleting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John the icon. Tried copying and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey pasting a folder icon? I’d made a new folder, copied and pasted it, didn’t matter. As soon as I drag from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like the parent, which is my home folder, so I’m dragging the drive folder onto the sidebar.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey When I start the drag, the icon that I’m dragging is the standard blue icon.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey When I get over to the sidebar, it flips into squircle jail icon and it’s driving me crazy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So please, somebody tell me how to fix this, please.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, if you, that’s, what is the Synology Drive thing? Is it just a, is it a mount point? Like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so it’s just a vanilla folder on the file system, but there’s client software. It’s,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey think about the way Dropbox used to work. Right, but is it, so it’s just a plain folder then? As far as I know,
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah. I mean, I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey think there’s anything weird about
⏹️ ▶️ John it. That’s so weird that it would do that, yeah. But I mean, I’m not the only one who filed these bugs. Like these custom
⏹️ ▶️ John folder features they added are just not honored by other parts of the system. Like even within
⏹️ ▶️ John the Finder, Finder is the one app that does honor them in some views, but not in the sidebar. And then the Dock
⏹️ ▶️ John has no idea. And I filed that bug. I forget if they closed it as works correctly or if they just ignored it, but a lot
⏹️ ▶️ John of people filed that. If I make a folder red and then put it in the Dock, why is it not red in the Dock? I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ John know. 26.1 didn’t change it, I think. So if
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I put this in the dock, it appears to be just a regular, the correct icon.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although I haven’t, I, I,
⏹️ ▶️ John you, I think if you stamped it with the little embossing thing, I’m not sure if the doc shows that either.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So now, now I got to do that. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll get back to you in a minute, but anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John tahoe, a lot of stuff in Tahoe is half baked. and the stuff that’s fully baked doesn’t taste good.
Sponsor: DeleteMe (code ATP)
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We are sponsored this episode by Delete.me. Delete.me makes it easy, quick, and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco vulnerable. Here’s how this works. Delete.me does all the hard work of wiping your personal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco information from data broker websites. Because these are the sites that like, when you do a web search for somebody’s name
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you see all these sites popping up saying like, hey, you can get their home address and phone number, just pay us some money. Those
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are data broker sites. And they make it really, really easy for anyone to find personal info about people.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And it’s really creepy. So what Delete.me does, they have all the opt-out mechanisms for all these
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sites. They know how to file all the takedowns and all the opt-outs. So what you do is you sign up for Delete.me, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco give them the information that you want to be removed about you and your family, and then they will go opt you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out and file takedowns across hundreds of data broker websites. Whenever they find new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco data brokers, they find new opt-outs for them and they automatically opt you out of those too. It’s an ongoing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco service, so you subscribe to it, You pay per month or per year or whatever. And what they do is they keep your data out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all the data breakers that they can find out about. So it really helps dramatically cut down
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all the different ways that people can get your personal info online. So it’s honestly, it’s a great idea for a service.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And before they were even a sponsor, I went looking for one of these and I found, Delete.me was the best recommended one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I tried it and I was very happy. So, and this was before they were a sponsor. So it was totally objective. Take control
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete.me. Now at a special discount for our listeners.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash ATP and use promo code
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ATP and enter code ATP at checkout. That’s joindeleteme.com
⏹️ ▶️ Marco slash ATP, code ATP. Thanks to Delete.me for sponsoring our show.
Overcast Reddit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Marco, we are too slow and we missed getting
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a first, uh, writer refusal with regard to something you discussed on under the radar.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Number 330, I think it was the most recent one, right? Um, uh, where you and underscore
⏹️ ▶️ Casey discussed that you have embraced Reddit and I am shook by this. Can you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey give us a very, very quick recap of what’s going on there? And if you have anything else to add, I’d love to hear
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so for you know the the beginning of time until recently overcast
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I have an official reddit presence I hardly use reddit. I still hardly use reddit It just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know was not a place I hung out was not a community that never really stuck for me What happens
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on a reddit and we have this for our show too if you don’t create an official community
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on reddit One will be created for you You have the right to remain silent
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But one will be created for you. And if you are not there,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what tends to happen is that the one that is created by other people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tends to be people who are mad or who don’t like you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It kind of becomes like a place where your biggest haters will gather.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so whenever I have discovered some subreddit for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something that I am a part of, it has not been a good experience
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to look at any of those posts because it gets very nasty and very personal pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco universally. And so I always had a pretty negative impression
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of Reddit and any motivation I would have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possibly be there or to put myself into that. You know, what I perceived as like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco subjecting myself to that. Like a long time ago, I used to listen to Howard Stern
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back many years ago, and in like the early days of Twitter, like he was getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on Twitter and he was, it was kind of interesting like listening to him as like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a kind of an old school celebrity, learning about like how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Twitter can like turn against you and how people are like harassing you constantly and you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have all these haters that just have, you know, all this like, you know, access directly to your attention.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And one thing that he said on the air one day, He’s like, why am I giving these people access
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to me like this? And that really stuck with me. And so over the years,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have occasionally wondered, why do I give the public
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so much access to my attention? Because a lot of times, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is very unreasonable, very negative, very personally attacking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so it can be pretty weighty on your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mood, your mental health, it’s a tough thing to deal with in the long term,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco especially when it gets rude or nasty or personal. And so for a while,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco my opinion of Reddit was basically,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is a place that is best left ignored for me. Like it is not good for me
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to go there because the people there all hate me. And it is not good for my mental
⏹️ ▶️ Marco health. It is not good for my focus. It is not a good use of my time to go there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Before we move on from this, I’d be curious to hear, John, your two cents about Reddit.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And for what it’s worth, I strongly echo what you’re saying with regard to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey things that one is involved in. There was a period of time where
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I would, at the very least, lurk and occasionally interact with the unofficial ATP subreddit
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it quickly became apparent that that was not a place for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And maybe that’s it. You can take that however you want. It doesn’t really matter, but it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey quickly made clear that this is not a place that I would like to be. That doesn’t mean
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the place is necessarily bad. It’s just, it’s bad for me. Um, but that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey being said, over the years, I’ve actually gotten more into Reddit in, and there’s
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a handful of subreddits that I’ve, that I’ve lurked in for a while now,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and they’re generally pretty good. And I definitely came down
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the opinion that all of Reddit was disgusting and hateful and evil and awful. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that can be true, but it is not as I had once thought always true. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that any service that seems to value anonymity, anonymity, In my
⏹️ ▶️ Casey personal opinion, you trend quickly towards a-holes, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not all of Reddit, you know, hashtag not all Reddit, not all of Reddit is that way. And I will look at,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, the subreddits that I do browse once every day or two. And sometimes I get really useful
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and good information from there. So I think I am up on Reddit broadly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am very, very down on Reddit about things that I’m involved in. So
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not that different from you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that’s fair, like, they’re really cruel to you in that place.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But, you know, what you’re saying though is very valid in the sense that, like, these social platforms and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco social networks, they’re huge. You can’t generalize and say,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, everyone on this platform is X. And, like, I remember back
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I was at Tumblr, I would occasionally see people say, like, oh, Tumblr’s mad today,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or Tumblr’s really down, or whatever. you know, that’s like, I’m not seeing that from the people I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco follow, you’re seeing that from people you follow. That’s a different thing. Like, when you’re in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a social platform, what you see is, generally speaking,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco either what you have chosen to see or what the algorithm is feeding you based on your activity, but either way, it’s like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you’re seeing a very narrow slice of a very big platform. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can’t just say like, oh, this entire platform is X because they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bigger than that. It’s the same thing like, you know, in New York City, New York City is not like, not everyone you see in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco New York City is involved in the stock market. It’s a big industry. There’s a lot of people who are involved
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in finance in New York City, but it’s such a big city. Every industry is huge
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the city. So everyone you see in the street, like you don’t know who they are, what they’re involved
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in. It’s too big of a city to assume that. That’s how social platforms are. They’re so big
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that there is no one type of person on them. There is no one type of community.
⏹️ ▶️ John So anyway. Well, on the topic of Reddit, I get what you’re saying, but there’s a
⏹️ ▶️ John couple of things that are a little bit different on the internet. One is that there’s no geographic boundary, so you can be much bigger than a single city. And
⏹️ ▶️ John the other is Reddit as a platform is designed to allow people to make sub-communities,
⏹️ ▶️ John sort of like self-governing, self-sustaining sub-communities. That’s what the platform is for. Now,
⏹️ ▶️ John that being said, Reddit was essentially seated by a particular
⏹️ ▶️ John type of individual in the early days, people who people who were attracted to nerdy things like
⏹️ ▶️ John these type of tech platforms, and also people who continue to be attracted to to this
⏹️ ▶️ John form of community building on the internet. There is you can generalize a little
⏹️ ▶️ John bit about this sort of stereotypical person who would be interested in being very active in
⏹️ ▶️ John Reddit or being a moderator on Reddit or whatever, to some degree. But Reddit
⏹️ ▶️ John is just so huge now and has been for years and years. And it’s made up of sub communities
⏹️ ▶️ John and the sub communities very widely. There’s sub communities that are have
⏹️ ▶️ John strict moderation rules that everyone has to be nice to sub communities that all they do is scream at each other all day. That’s
⏹️ ▶️ John like doesn’t even matter what the topic is. There’s there could be seven sub communities. They could be the sub community about model trains where everybody’s
⏹️ ▶️ John nice to each other. And there could be the sub community about model trains or everybody’s mean and has flame wars about model trains. It’s like there’s
⏹️ ▶️ John that’s what Reddit supports. Make your own community that is what you want
⏹️ ▶️ John it to be. Have moderation, have don’t don’t have moderation, whatever your rules are. There was it was a blob recently.
⏹️ ▶️ John There’s a procreate Reddit for like the procreate program for iPad, like the graphics application.
⏹️ ▶️ John Someone made a Reddit for procreate where the people would share their artwork and someone shared a
⏹️ ▶️ John picture that they drew of Master Chief from the Halo game with the trans flag behind him and the moderators
⏹️ ▶️ John took it down because they said we don’t want politics in And as you would imagine, that blew up into a big thing of saying the existence
⏹️ ▶️ John of people is not political and blah, blah, blah. And the upshot is people who don’t like it
⏹️ ▶️ John left the Reddit and started their own procreate Reddit that’s not filled with bigots.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that’s Reddit as a platform supports that. Make the community that you want to have
⏹️ ▶️ John run it the way that you want to have it, which is so, you know, speaking of like the ATP subreddit or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John they’re using Reddit correctly. Whoever wants to form that sub community on whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John they wanna talk about, however they wanna talk about it, there could be five of them, 10 of them, one of them, zero of
⏹️ ▶️ John them. And most of those communities are not for me. I don’t use Reddit much
⏹️ ▶️ John at all. Most of the time I’m just getting it as a Google result or whatever for something that I’m searching, in which case I’m glad those communities
⏹️ ▶️ John exist and someone is like figuring out the best way to repair my particular dishwasher and writing a big Reddit post about
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Like I love it, that’s great about Reddit, but I don’t personally participate in most of those communities,
⏹️ ▶️ John But I love that it is a platform that provides a way for people to make those communities. So I view
⏹️ ▶️ John the ATP Reddit or however many ones there are, Overcast, Reddit, or whatever, as those
⏹️ ▶️ John are people using this platform, which is kind of like a nested,
⏹️ ▶️ John threaded, indented text-based web forum style community.
⏹️ ▶️ John They make the communities they wanna make, and some of the communities thrive and
⏹️ ▶️ John become popular and big and get lots of structure around them. other ones sort of like fizzle out or whatever, but like I don’t begrudge
⏹️ ▶️ John anybody using that platform to make a community they want to have. And in the grand scheme of these type of platforms,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think for the most part, there’s been some kerfuffles about Reddit doing evil things with moderators or whatever, but
⏹️ ▶️ John like it has mostly resisted becoming a
⏹️ ▶️ John terrible parody of itself and being taken over by a super duper
⏹️ ▶️ John evil billionaires. Uh, maybe they just have like mildly evil billionaires taking over. Anyway, uh, all
⏹️ ▶️ John this is to say is that I don’t frequent Reddit, but I’m glad that it exists, and I don’t begrudge anyone to make
⏹️ ▶️ John whatever community they want to make in Reddit. And if you don’t like a particular subreddit, don’t read it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s kind of what led me to re-evaluate. So one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing I realized over time recently is it was not doing me any good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have places where my customers were gathering to talk about how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much I sucked and how much I wasn’t listening to them. Because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me to not be there reinforces the fact that I’m not listening to them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the reality is, those places usually were so negative that I was not in fact listening
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to them because I decided I was better off ignoring those places and kind of shutting them out because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was too hurtful to read them most of the time. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this was not really a good solution. Like this was not a good situation that I had this like kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hate sink almost like a heat sink. Like this is like where all the hate gets concentrated.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And meanwhile at the same time, I am realizing over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco time that first of all, I want to engage more with my customers and I used to have a place
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for that. It was Twitter and then Twitter became a Nazi bar. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, I left Twitter and there’s and Mastodon is The most direct
⏹️ ▶️ Marco replacement for me, but it’s not even close to a replacement. You know, Mastodon
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a certain type of community very heavily there. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very heavily nerds. It’s very heavily men. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco very heavily white men. It’s not a very diverse community. It’s not a very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco complete community. And granted, Reddit does not do amazingly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in that area. But it’s better than Mastodon, I think. But certainly better than what
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ve seen at Mastodon. And Mastodon, it’s also just small.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It’s a much smaller community than Twitter was. And there’s other things like Blue
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Sky and Threads, but they, I don’t think it’s a good idea
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for me to try to spread myself across all those different platforms and try to build a presence on all of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them. It’s like, I got work to do. I don’t have time for all that. And I’m not convinced that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the outcome there was very good. I spent years feeling like I was like addicted to Twitter.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s why I made Quitter. It was because I was addicted to Twitter and I was running time tracking software and I was seeing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wow, I’m spending like, you know, five or six hours a week on Twitter. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I tried for years to reduce my dependence on that kind of thing. Now I finally have, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Mastodon doesn’t have that much going on, and I want to jump right into BlueSky and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco threads? Like, no! That’s terrible! that would be a terrible idea for me. So I’ve decided like, I’m not really gonna,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, invest much or anything in those platforms. But Masternode is so limited. And I’m like, all right, I need
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to find other ways to engage with my customers and to engage with, and to find new users, frankly, and to engage with other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people. And so email is one way that I hear from customers, but email
⏹️ ▶️ Marco has a lot of limits as well. Like I definitely hear from the most people via email by far.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But if I respond to an email, which it’s hard to keep up
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all. And if I’m relying on email as my main communication
⏹️ ▶️ Marco venue, it all comes to me. So no one else can respond to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it except me. I mean, yeah, I could hire somebody, which maybe I still might do that at some point,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I’ve had negative experiences with that in the past. I didn’t really wanna do that. So anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco email doesn’t really scale because it’s just me seeing it all. No one else can help
⏹️ ▶️ Marco respond if they have the same problem or they already know the answer. And when I respond to somebody, only one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco person will ever see that. So I’m not really creating like a knowledge base. I’m not really creating
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, you know, support articles or any kind of equivalent. I’m not creating search results for other people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to find. And AI is now here
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a big way, replacing a lot of help and web search. Now, when you look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at what the AI companies are indexing, what their data sources are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for things like obscure questions about apps and technical platforms. Reddit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is where all that information is coming from. That’s why Reddit is like locking out search engines
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and starting to license their data like for money because it’s very valuable to AI companies and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re one of the only places that has that kind of value at that scale. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Reddit answers and like Reddit posts are becoming the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco truth input to AI. Like when an AI model is being trained on a whole
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bunch of data, what is it being trained on? Reddit. And so if somebody
⏹️ ▶️ Marco asks ChatGPT, hey in Overcash, how do I do this? What is it going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be pulling from? Reddit. So I thought this is actually a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good time to reconsider whether I should participate in Reddit or not because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it seems like there’s a lot of reasons pointing to maybe I should give it a try
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I had such bad experiences you know browsing it in the past I’m like alright well
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what do I do here you know I don’t want to like invade and do like kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know join the existing one and say all right I’m here everyone you know like that I felt
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that would be like walking into a tomato launcher like that’s not a good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco entrance, not a good situation to walk into. So I thought, I will create my own.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the people who wanna hate me can have their own space and they can keep hating me. I’m not gonna invade their space.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That’s kind of like one thing I mentioned under the radar is like back when Twitter was smaller,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we would be able to rant about a company on Twitter and we would just rant to each other and it was fine. And then as Twitter
⏹️ ▶️ Marco got bigger and all the companies not only got on Twitter, but then started getting like search bots would crawl
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for mentions of them so they can intervene with their customer service teams. It became a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco less fun to rant about like, oh, I had a bad flight on United because then like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you get a message from United customer support. Hey, we’d love to help. Please tell us. Please DM us so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we can chat and work this out for you. Carrot XP or whatever the initials were the people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco personally, you know, and it like once the companies were there responding
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to you and you knew that if you you posted something complaining about them, you knew they would see it,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it kind of toned it down a little bit. Because it kind of sucks the fun out of complaining. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it turns it into like, okay, well, I know they’re gonna see this if I post, if I mention
⏹️ ▶️ Marco their name, so maybe I’ll be a little bit kinder and maybe I’ll consider whether I really want to be posting this rant
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or not. Well, that happens on Reddit too, as it turns out. So I created my own community on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Reddit. And what happened was, first of all, it was not the old community. I let them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be and I created my own space and I also publicized to my audience.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Here is my Reddit and what that created was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a very civilized place because first of all it was a lot of my people filling it up.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So good okay you know it’s my existing audience on my social platforms I linked to it in the app you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know so like it’s my users filling it up instead of just like you know a small handful of people who don’t like me very much.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But also, I was there showing myself to be there. I was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco publicly present and I was, I posted a lot. I’m still posting not as much now because I just got back from
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a vacation, but I’m posting a lot. And by me being there, people are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco automatically kind of instinctively just being a lot more civil. And part of that is because I’m fixing a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of problems. And that’s, that’s always a good idea. But you know, part of it also is that they know I’m there. It’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same way like when people are in their cars they will behave with their driving
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in a more rude manner oftentimes than what they would do face to face
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to somebody. And because it’s like when you’re in your car like the other people are dehumanized
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re just other cars you don’t you don’t see them as people driving cars you’re like oh that car is a jerk or whatever and then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but if you’re like standing in line at the bank you wouldn’t like you know aggressively ride behind the person
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in front of you trying to get them to hurry up and write that Check like you know this there’s certain things that like you would never do in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco person like humanity gets in the way Well, that’s what I’m seeing on reddit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like because I am there now with an official presence and an official subreddit And they know
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I’m going to be reading most of these posts They’re being a lot nicer,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it’s much more like Constructive it’s and look it’s not all roses people are people are reporting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems sure I get that there are problems That’s why I’m there to try to help fix these problems
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But they’re doing it in a civil way. Like no one’s being unreasonably mean.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco A couple times somebody posts something a little bit snarky, it gets downvoted before I even see it usually. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s been a much more productive place. And I think people are appreciative
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I am there, and I’m appreciative of them because they are bringing things to my attention
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that weren’t getting through before. before and then every single time I write an answer to a question,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all I don’t even have to answer them all because other people are answering them which is amazing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but then second of all when I do post an answer to a question other people can see it and it gets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco indexed as a search result. It gets crawled by AI trainers and then it becomes an AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco answer when people ask AI engines and so I feel like I’m like I’m multiplying my effort here
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which as a one-person business you always have to find ways to do that like that’s that’s always a challenge
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for one-person businesses. Like, how do you multiply yourself? How do you scale yourself? And this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is way better than trying to solve problems by email, because other
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people can help. And if I do jump in and say something, other people can then
⏹️ ▶️ Marco find that information later. So, so far, it’s been a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco positive experience. Again, like, it’s not all easy because there are certain, you know, hard problems that I have to tackle.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I found, I found, I’m just being honest about that. Like, so you know, I took
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a vacation last week and before I left, I thought of like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whether I should do this or not. But I decided, you know what, I’m going to tell the Reddit,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m gonna be gone for a week. That way, they won’t get too mad if I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not responding for a week to anything that’s posted. And I was also trying, and maybe I’ll get back to this later,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was trying not to do any work on this trip because this is also kind of a challenge that I’ve had,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a personal challenge. I am not good at not working. And I’ve been trying to get better at that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m trying to get better at like being able to take a vacation and not bring
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work with me and not the whole time feel like, oh, I should be doing work. So,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I posted on the Reddit before I left, I said, I’m going on a personal vacation after all this, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was 26 happened, all this stuff has just happened. I’m going on a vacation for a week. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was really afraid of how that would be received.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And every single comment on it, I think everything, was positive. It was all like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good job, man, you deserve it. You take as long as you need. I was shocked. The difference
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in attitude between the responses to that and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how I was picturing I’d be received on Reddit all these years was striking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think that’s largely because I’m there, I’m present,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m engaging, I’m actually like involved now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so that seems to have improved everything. Actually being in this discussion,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being present in this community, leading my own subreddit. And if people wanna go hate me somewhere
⏹️ ▶️ Marco else, they can do that, I’m not gonna interfere with that. But having my place that is like, here’s where I will see things, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will respond to things. People have responded to that incredibly well. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we’ll see how it goes. I mean, I still, you know, this is still early days. Things can always go badly,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but I’m optimistic. I think this will actually be a really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good change that I’ve made. And I think that this community, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s a small community. There’s not that many people in it so far, but I think it’s going to end up being really good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I think I’m heading in the right direction. And so far, you know, the more I participate,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the better it gets.
⏹️ ▶️ John You may be in a honeymoon period, but we’ll see. But like, that’s the kind of the issue with things like Reddit and someone mentioned
⏹️ ▶️ John in the chat room, like that we should have like a members only discord or whatever. In the beginning,
⏹️ ▶️ John it looks like everything’s all upside and this great and everyone’s happened to be here.
⏹️ ▶️ John But running any kind of online community or not even running it, but just,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, participating in an online community and having that community be sustained
⏹️ ▶️ John in a way that pleases you, especially if you’re the one who started the community. You started it
⏹️ ▶️ John with a purpose. You want something out of it. You want it to be different than the existing community. Ideally,
⏹️ ▶️ John it should do X, Y, and Z for you. You’re like, I did it and so far it’s working great. It’s doing what I want.
⏹️ ▶️ John But how do communities maintain that? How do they, you have a way that you
⏹️ ▶️ John want this community to be? It is that way now. How do you make it stay that way?
⏹️ ▶️ John Inevitably, you run up to the exact same things that anyone who’s ever had any kind of community online
⏹️ ▶️ John or otherwise, but especially online because it’s been done at scale, runs into. What are the rules
⏹️ ▶️ John of this community? What are the social norms? How are they enforced? Do we need moderators? What are the rules?
⏹️ ▶️ John Now, we argue about the rules. Are we banning people? What are they like? I mean, look at the procreate community. They
⏹️ ▶️ John thought it was great. We’re just here sharing art for years and years until you know, I think they did some kind of like vote,
⏹️ ▶️ John like we’re going to vote on the community guidelines are and like this is a subreddit with like 100,000 people in it, right? 43 people
⏹️ ▶️ John voted in the poll about whether they should allow quote unquote politics.
⏹️ ▶️ John And of the 43 people that voted, the majority of them said no, we shouldn’t have politics here. And that
⏹️ ▶️ John that little decision slept there until someone posted message for the trans flag. And now
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s like, we didn’t realize we were in this community. And now there’s a schism and people are branching off and people are angry and what happens
⏹️ ▶️ John to the old community. And it’s a thankless job to try to run a community
⏹️ ▶️ John like that or to try to, you know, make sure that everybody who is participating understands
⏹️ ▶️ John the rules of that community and gets them enforced and doesn’t get mad about it or whatever. And in many respects, when a community
⏹️ ▶️ John is small and self-selecting, you don’t have to worry about that. But if it, as time goes on, like
⏹️ ▶️ John outside threats, people from the other community come over and decide they’re going to participate
⏹️ ▶️ John in this new community because that’s where the action is happening, but now they are all mean and anything. Is there some mechanism in place to
⏹️ ▶️ John stop them from doing that? Would you just leave and start another community? Would you constantly be fleeing from them?
⏹️ ▶️ John Would you think that everyone else would shout them down? Like, and then if it becomes a screaming match between the old people and the new
⏹️ ▶️ John people, online community is really, really hard. So I hope that doesn’t happen to your Reddit, but like, you always have to think like,
⏹️ ▶️ John well, what’s stopping it from happening? Just that people have decided not to do that
⏹️ ▶️ John so far. Right? And you know, if it doesn’t work out, doesn’t work out, you leave, like, so what?
⏹️ ▶️ John Like it was good for a time and you know, whatever. And as you noted, the information that is there and getting indexed,
⏹️ ▶️ John that is a value, even if it only lasts a short period of time. And presumably you’re getting
⏹️ ▶️ John value out of it now with interacting with customers and so on and so forth. Like all the things you said are true and that doesn’t change,
⏹️ ▶️ John even if things go south sometime in the future. Um, although I will point out two things. One, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John it would have that exact same value without AI, like Google search index, like half the time I’m finding myself on a Reddit thing, because
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m Googling for how to fix some dishwasher and I land on a Reddit post or whatever. Or like even the shortcuts thing, that solution
⏹️ ▶️ John I found in Reddit about like, don’t overwrite files. That was just a Google search, right? Obviously, AI is
⏹️ ▶️ John another ingredient because so many people are using it now, that who will never actually go to reddit.com,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is why Reddit wants money from them, because they’re not actually sending any traffic there. And yes, it’s good that you’re participating in that as well.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that has value no matter how this goes. But one of the people ask about discords that I mentioned before,
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the reasons we don’t have that is because I think all three of us understand that if we were to run an an official
⏹️ ▶️ John discord, now we’re taking on a responsibility for governance in a community of fans.
⏹️ ▶️ John If ATP fans wanna have their own discord, they can do that right now.
⏹️ ▶️ John Nothing we can, we’re not stopping them, right? It’s just that we don’t wanna run that community because
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a lot of work to run any kind of community and there’s significant downside if we’re seen as the people who are setting
⏹️ ▶️ John the rules for the community and forcing them and people are angry about it and it’s like, guys, if you want
⏹️ ▶️ John a community of ATP fans, go make one. And then you get to run that community and you can see how hard it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can make seven communities. You can have 10 subreddits. You can have Slack channels. You can have Hotline channels.
⏹️ ▶️ John You can have IRC channels. Like, just, but running a community is so difficult. So that’s
⏹️ ▶️ John why we haven’t ever done that as an official type thing. I know some people want it, but it’s a subset and running that community becomes
⏹️ ▶️ John like a huge amount of work for a small number of people. And there’s only so many things we can
⏹️ ▶️ John all take on since we have so many plates spinning here. So I don’t know. I’m
⏹️ ▶️ John I’m wary about your red. I’m glad it’s working out for you. And another thing you mentioned on on
⏹️ ▶️ John under the radar, which I thought was a good self-knowledge, but also, you know, is kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of a bummer is I think underscore s like, um, I know you said this yourself, like,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, like you’re not creating a knowledge base, like you’re not like making like a, an actual repository
⏹️ ▶️ John of information. You’re answering people’s questions on Reddit and those get indexed. And that’s the system working the way it intended.
⏹️ ▶️ John And you said, it’s because I I know I will never actually sit down and make some kind of like official structured
⏹️ ▶️ John knowledge base It’s like I know myself. I haven’t done that in the past. I’m probably not gonna do it in the future
⏹️ ▶️ John But I will do this. I will answer someone’s question on reddit and allow that to be passively indexed
⏹️ ▶️ John my pitch would be having some kind of self-created set of documentation
⏹️ ▶️ John knowledge base or whatever will make Make answering people’s questions on Reddit easier because you can
⏹️ ▶️ John then give a quick summary and link them to the lengthier explanation instead of writing it over and over again.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s the one of the reasons we have a membership FAQ on ATP.FM is because people have membership
⏹️ ▶️ John questions and there’s no way and how and lots of people they email for support or whatever because again we don’t have a
⏹️ ▶️ John community to do this which is fine but I don’t want to write the same email or apply seven times so that’s why
⏹️ ▶️ John I have anchor links to the specific question that they asked in the membership FAQ that gives
⏹️ ▶️ John a longer explanation. And if five or six people ask a question that becomes frequently asked, guess what? It
⏹️ ▶️ John goes into the FAQ, which is kind of like a knowledge base, which gets indexed, which yada yada. So I would encourage you
⏹️ ▶️ John to at least if something keeps coming up, consider at overcast.fm
⏹️ ▶️ John having a FAQ or something where the most frequently asked questions are and you have a formal
⏹️ ▶️ John longer answer and you can still informally answer people’s questions there. But I think what you’ll see then is people who are answering questions for
⏹️ ▶️ John you, we’ll start linking to your FAQ. And the FAQ is a living document that you control, so unlike
⏹️ ▶️ John the Reddit post, which you’re not going to go back and edit years later, you can keep updating the FAQ to be more
⏹️ ▶️ John accurate and expanded or whatever. So that’s my only pitch. I know you’re not going to write a knowledge base, I know you’re not going to write
⏹️ ▶️ John your own extensive documentation or whatever, but having something that you control
⏹️ ▶️ John to link to from those discussions is very useful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean you are correct. That would be great, but the reality is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I won’t do it and it’s not like some kind of you know principled stand it’s I don’t have time
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re just not that type of person I get it like you said that in things like self-knowledge like I get that I’m just saying like I think there’s a compromise
⏹️ ▶️ John or maybe like some tiny amount of that you could force yourself to do may again it
⏹️ ▶️ John can may scale you better it may it may pay dividends you’re not committing to like I’m gonna write giant formal documentation
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and it’s just like it’s a time thing like I I Barely have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco enough time to keep up with Reading the feedback trying to respond to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some of it like I I barely even can have can reply to most of it But I try to respond to some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of it To also then go and create all this documentation and everything like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just it’s so much easier To just write stuff in a reddit field and hit submit
⏹️ ▶️ John I know but like you’d never but what if someone has the same question two months from now? and I was like, I just answered that. Well, if you had it in
⏹️ ▶️ John a single place, if it’s literally frequently asked, put it in the list of frequently asked questions,
⏹️ ▶️ John and then you can just link to the longer answer so you don’t have to rewrite the longer answer over and over again. Because there
⏹️ ▶️ John is some common stuff that is always coming up. Now, maybe not the way you’re using it now, because it’s more of kind of like feedback
⏹️ ▶️ John and on the fly and what problems are people experiencing or whatever. And honestly, like obviously the thing you’re
⏹️ ▶️ John much more inclined to do is that if lots of people are being confused about a feature, you’ll change it in the app to solve that problem and
⏹️ ▶️ John not write a lengthy explanation how it’s supposed to work. But as you noted about like priority playlists, certain things,
⏹️ ▶️ John there is no one obvious solution that you all just update the app and this will no longer be confusing. You have to
⏹️ ▶️ John make certain decisions. There’s areas where there is no one right answer. And sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s good to just have an explanation of the way you have chosen to make it work and why. And you’re currently
⏹️ ▶️ John you’re putting that in Reddit, but if this community lasts for a long time, three years from now, you’re gonna
⏹️ ▶️ John get sick of writing that same answer over and over again. Maybe who viewed to have a paragraph
⏹️ ▶️ John of text somewhere on a website that you can link to.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, we’ll see. You might be right over time
⏹️ ▶️ John for now. Or the whole community could be invaded and your lack of formal moderation and
⏹️ ▶️ John code of conduct will, you know. And it’s not even that. The lack, like no one is running
⏹️ ▶️ John this. Like you haven’t like designated moderators. You’re certainly not moderating and banning people, right? So like,
⏹️ ▶️ John it’s a very, it’s an informal community. It survives based on norms. And I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ John you are not going to certainly invest the time to be like, now I’m a full-time community manager for this subreddit.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, but also like, so all of your concerns
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the health of a community, that’s all valid, and that may come to pass.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So far, I don’t think the community is big or broad enough
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have that be a high risk. First of all, you use the example of the Procreate community.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Procreate has substantially more users than Overcast. I don’t know what their numbers are.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guarantee you it’s way more than
⏹️ ▶️ John me. Yeah, I’ve got a Reddit with 100,000 people. So these are the nerdiest of the nerds and there’s 100,000 of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, their user base is probably a hundred times the size of mine. Like it is way bigger than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mine. So that’s a very different beast already just from size.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And again, like, you know, when you’re talking about like publishing art people have made, yeah
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that’s pretty broad. No one’s publishing art they’ve made in Overcast. The range of potential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco controversy or you know ways in which the community can become toxic, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just a much smaller range for the Overcast subreddit. You know, because it’s way fewer people and it’s way more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco narrowly focused. It probably won’t become a problem but again I think I’m
⏹️ ▶️ Marco too inexperienced on Reddit to really be able to say that for sure but I think it will probably be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the bigger risk is that it would die, like just from
⏹️ ▶️ John Fizzle out due to inactivity like the Slack did?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like I think that’s the much bigger risk of like how this fails is it just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dies down and there’s not enough volume for people to pay attention.
⏹️ ▶️ John Even if it does, like I said, you will still have that content that will be indexed and like, you know, like it still has produced
⏹️ ▶️ John value that as long as Reddit stays existing and those pages stay on the web and get
⏹️ ▶️ John indexed and so on and so forth, that value will still be there, but it no longer is an active
⏹️ ▶️ John community where you’re getting like real-time feedback. But we’ll see, like Slack is definitely way more hidden and
⏹️ ▶️ John like difficult to get to, the barrier to entry is higher, whereas people can find a Reddit page in
⏹️ ▶️ John a million different ways, and once they land there, people know how to click on a web page. Like maybe they don’t know how to use
⏹️ ▶️ John Reddit, but like I feel like Slack with their stupid login system and everything is just so much harder
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s like I had the beta, it’s like I have since shut it down. I thought the Slack
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would be like more of that kind of community, but it just never got the volume.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was and the volume, it was never high, and it just got lower and lower over time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that that just wasn’t going to happen long term. But and I think you’re right. Like Slack is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made to be a private walled garden. And for this kind of community, that’s just the wrong model.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like this needs to like if you’re trying to make a community around your app, it can’t be a slack. It has to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a publicly available website that can be indexed and anybody can join. Like that’s, that’s
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the way to do it. That’s the way to go. So again, we’ll see how it goes. It’s still early days.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Maybe we’ll listen back to this in a year and it all burned to the ground and I’ll laugh at how
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wrong I was, but I don’t think so. I think it’s probably going to be good. I think it’s, it’s, again, it’s either going to,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, fizzle out and be nothing or it’ll be sustained and be pretty good. Uh, and I,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, honestly, I think the latter is more likely. My best guess is one year from now,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Reddit will look very similar to how it does now in terms of like the tone, the traffic,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, the, the usefulness to everybody. Um, so hopefully I’m right about that and we’ll see how
⏹️ ▶️ John it goes. Well, at least he didn’t make a Facebook page. Oh God. Talk about not
⏹️ ▶️ Marco having control over your community. All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Delete.me,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and Zapier. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atv.fm slash
⏹️ ▶️ Marco join. You will get, of course, as mentioned earlier, that membership discount, or the, sorry, the merchandise discount.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whoops. And as well as all of our exclusive content, including Overtime, our weekly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco bonus topic this week on Overtime. We’re going to be talking about Neo, the household,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco quote, robot? Is it a robot? John will tell us, and maybe Joanna Sturm will have also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco told us. We will talk about that in overtime. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. to you next week.
Ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ John Now the show is over, they didn’t even mean to begin Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ John John didn’t do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn’t let him Cause
⏹️ ▶️ John it was accidental, oh it was accidental
⏹️ ▶️ John you can find the show notes at atp.fm
⏹️ ▶️ John And if you’re into Mastodon, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that’s Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M,
⏹️ ▶️ John S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse It’s
⏹️ ▶️ John accidental, they didn’t mean to
⏹️ ▶️ John Accidental Check podcasts so
3D printing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I recently gotten into very early days of 3d printing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, what are you trying to print? And I think that came out sarcastic or about, I don’t mean it that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way. I’m genuinely asking.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, for a long time ago, Tiff got me as like an experimental Christmas gift. She
⏹️ ▶️ Marco got me a 3d printer many years ago. Um, the company, I believe it’s Shindo.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, the company went out of business long ago. They had like proprietary filament,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco uh, which is the rolls of plastic that you that get extruded to print stuff. And like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco nobody, like you had to like hack the microchips in their filament with third-party refills to get it to, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so like maintaining that printer over time is difficult and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a very early model. Like for the time it was good, but I mean, that was probably almost 10 years ago.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And printers have come a long way since then. So our plan was, okay, that printer, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, we will, I never really used it that much. I used it basically to print a few
⏹️ ▶️ Marco HomePod cord management stands and a coffee filter holder
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and that’s about all I ever made with it. But what happened was as it was sitting on a shelf for a while,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that over time Tiff and Adam would play with it. And especially around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Halloween, Adam would often request a Halloween costume that would be based on a video game character
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or something and we would be able to 3D print a mask or or a helmet or something
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as part of the costume. And then over time, Adam learned, oh, we can also 3D print
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a bunch of like fun little toys and doodads and stuff. And so we would print some of those. And the old 3D
⏹️ ▶️ Marco printer, eventually we ran out of first party filament and we got tired of trying to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hack it. And so we’re like, you know what? This Halloween, he had a pretty ambitious
⏹️ ▶️ Marco costume model to print. And I’m like, let’s get a new 3D printer for the family.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And my interest in it is much more limited. My interest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in it has basically been like, when I have a need for something to be 3D printed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will solve that need. That need doesn’t happen very often for me,
⏹️ ▶️ John happen. That’s like the wifi thing at the restaurant that you told us about.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so the first thing I had in a long time, and this was actually with the old
⏹️ ▶️ Marco printer, was my Yolink temperature monitors
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that I put in the restaurant fridges. Yolink didn’t have any kind of bracket, so I went
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on, I think it’s, is it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Is that what this site,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tinkercad, yeah. I asked Chachaputi, like, what do people use, like, what do children use to make
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 3D models from scratch, basically? And I came upon Tinkercad, which is this, like, kind of, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco simplified web app version of, like, that’s sponsored by AutoCAD, that basically is like a web app to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make very simple 3D models. And so I went on Tinkercad, I figured out how to use it. I have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco calipers, and so I measured the temperature sensor and I made myself a bracket for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the OLEC sensor. And I printed it out in this ugly red plastic because it’s the only filament we had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco left. It was, but it was, it felt very good to have a problem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to solve that problem myself. And I couldn’t just go on Amazon
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and buy a bracket for $6 because they didn’t exist. No one made them. And there was no model
⏹️ ▶️ Marco existing on Thingiverse or Makerworld or anything like that. And so I couldn’t use someone else’s model. I had to make my own
⏹️ ▶️ Marco model from scratch and solve this problem myself. And it felt pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good, to be honest. But I’m not like a maker.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m not constantly thinking about new things to print, new things to make. That’s just kind of not how my brain works.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so I don’t really have a frequent use for it. But the rest of the time, my family is printing fun stuff all the time.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we got the new printer, and special thanks to our friend Merlin Mann, who’s been talking about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 3D printing for a couple of years now on his various podcasts, as he’s gotten really into it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’ve been following his posts on Mastodon about it and everything else. And he, a couple years ago,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had asked him, like, hey, whenever I upgrade my printer, what should I get? And he recommended the Bamboo
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Company, B-A-M-B-U, because they basically have like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco almost like an Apple-like integrated system. They sell the printers, they sell spools of filament.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You can use other filament if you want to, but if you stick within their system and get their stuff,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s very easy. Everything is like, you know, tagged with RFIDs. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you put in their filament and it reads it and it knows what it is, it knows what color
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it is, it knows what material it is. It knows like how hot to set the nozzle and stuff like that. All these different variables
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you need with 3D printing. So if you are not a 3D printing nerd
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and just want to like get into it. It’s a great solution for that because it takes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco care of a lot of those details for you if you stick within their system. And I don’t,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who cares? If I have to only buy their filament, fine. I’m not a power user here. I don’t
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need anyone else’s filament. I’ll just stick with theirs. So it makes it easier. Anyway, so I can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now say with a little bit more experience with it, first of all, the Bamboo printers are awesome.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like they have come, 3D printers have come a long way in the last 10 years.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco A long way, a mile. Oh my God, it’s so much easier now. It’s so much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better than it used to be. But also now, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it has gotten easier and better and faster, I’m also now finding a few more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco opportunities to use it. So first of all, I’m having fun just helping my kid with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff he wants to make. I got a role of TPU because that’s hard to print,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but we now have a nice printer that can print it. So like, and TPU can be like a little bit squishy.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that’s kind of fun. You can make certain different types of things with different behavior with that. So like we figured out how do we
⏹️ ▶️ Marco print TPU? We figured it out and we printed a few little things and they’re squishy and it’s delightful.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, the other day I had this stupid idea. I’m like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know what? I have a 3D printer now. For the last, I don’t know, year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ever since we remodeled this house, are our bedside lamps. We redid the bed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco area and our bedside lamps are these like sconces on the walls. And the switches
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to them are those little metal knobs. You know the ones that are like about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as thick as like a pencil eraser? And they’re three-way lamps.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So to turn it off, you might have to turn this thing three clicks and they just have those little like, you know, ridges
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on these little knobs. And next to your bed, first of all, it’s like, they’re annoying,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they’re hard to turn. And then like in the winter, if I just put moisturizer on my hands before I went to bed,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I can’t turn those knobs.
⏹️ ▶️ John You need OXO Good Grips for your lights or you could have hooked up to a smart thing, which I’m sure everyone would get to ride in and
⏹️ ▶️ John say, you know, you could just clap like the clapper and they’ll turn off.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I tried those things. But basically the way they’re wired, it would be very difficult to have a smart switch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m like, all right, that option is out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Smart light bulb is what people are gonna suggest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But of course they’re like, you know, custom fixtures with like little tiny, those like little tiny round bulbs.
⏹️ ▶️ John Not for use in enclosed fixtures, a lot of those smart light bulbs will say.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It isn’t enclosed, it’s literally they won’t fit. Like if I tried to find like a smart bulb, it’s like, it’s almost
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the size of like an oven bulb. It’s these little tiny round bulbs that go in these things. They’re made to be pretty, they’re
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not made to be functional. So I looked, believe me, I looked for smart bulbs that would fit this, they don’t exist.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I’m like, okay. So my option is deal with the switch. Well, instead I just, for the last year,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had like this little like USB lamp next to my bed. I would just use that instead. I just wouldn’t even
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use these lamps. And neither would Tiff, because it was so much for paying the app. So I finally,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I had an idea. I’m like, I have a 3D printer now. I wonder if I can just make basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like a wing nut, like a, you know, something that I could stick on top of these. It’d look
⏹️ ▶️ John like a butterfly, so it’s still decorative.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I could actually, I didn’t, but I could. But I’m like, so I went into Tinkercad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I got my calipers, I measured, like, alright, the metal knob is, you know, whatever it is, like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 7mm wide, and it’s about 12mm tall, so I’m like, alright, I’ll make a shape
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can fit over that with a hole, and then just two wings sticking out the sides.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I’ll just make, basically, yeah, basically a butterfly or a wingnut. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’m like, and I figure, like, I’ll have to, like, really shove it on there, and it’ll only fit with friction, so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I’ll probably, It’ll probably take a bunch of tries to get this right and get exactly the right size and maybe I’ll have to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use TPU so We can like squish around it who knows the very first one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I printed worked and I stuck it on and you got to really shove
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it on there because this is again It’s a friction fit, but that’s by design I really shoved it on there And I printed a second one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I put it on the one on tiff’s side of the bed And I went to bed that night, and I went flip
⏹️ ▶️ Marco flip flip flip, and I can just flip it so So the satisfaction I have had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out of this stupid little thing, like I had this problem in my home and I solved
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. And I solved it really, really well with this perfect
⏹️ ▶️ Marco solution, with this weird plastic that looks like wood. Wow.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The feeling that gives me, like, I don’t, again, I don’t have a lot of need for custom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco printed parts in my life, but the rest of my family can have fun with the printer all the rest of the time. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when I do have a need for something like this, oh man, it’s so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco satisfying. I’m so pleased with myself. And I’m probably not going to get into,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, again, very frequent needs for this. But when I have that one specific
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need, it’s a great feeling. So anyway, if you’re out there, if you’re, if you’re 3D printer curious,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco go to Bamboo Labs. Like it makes everything easy for you. And I can recommend it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And thanks Merlin for tipping me off to all this stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You know, it’s funny you bring this up. This morning I woke up absurdly early for no good reason. I couldn’t get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey back to sleep. And so I was, you know, looking at YouTube and a friend of mine, Eric Wielander, I’ve brought
⏹️ ▶️ Casey him up from time to time on the show. He does a lot of really great YouTube stuff about smart home and largely around home
⏹️ ▶️ Casey kit. And I watched, I’d heard of this kind of obliquely before, but I watched a video of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey his about grid affinity. Are you familiar with this? No. So, what this is, is,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and I’m going to, I don’t know anything about 3D printing. So I’m probably going to get some of the details wrong,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but the idea is you print a like grid, a very, very,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not very tall, but a grid thing that you place in like a drawer, for example, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And then you print little containers that snap into that grid. Does that make any sense
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at all? So you have like this base plate, if you will, and then you have these bespoke things that you snap
⏹️ ▶️ Casey into the base plate. you take a drawer that’s, you know, just a garbage drawer full of junk.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And now it’s a garbage drawer full of organized junk.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco And so with custom plastic parts,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with custom plastic parts. Um, and so I’ve been looking at this and this is not a need
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have in my life, but this is one of those things where I’m trying to invent a reason to buy a 3d printer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have no space. I have no, I have no idea where I could put one. I don’t have the money. I don’t feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I have the money to just flush on a 3d printer that I’d probably never use, especially since our local library
⏹️ ▶️ Casey will let you do 3D prints. I’ve never tried this, but I know that that’s a service that they offer, and I don’t think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it’s very expensive. But all that to be said, I’ll put a link to this video in the show notes, this gridfinity
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing looks really, really slick, and I’m very intrigued by it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say also, let me just check to make sure this company still exists. Yeah, it does.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Adam had a lot of fun when we were living at the beach. We got him a little 3D printer called Toybox.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don’t know if I ever I never mentioned on the show, I probably did years ago. So Toybox makes basically
⏹️ ▶️ Marco tiny 3D printers for children with really easy rolls of filaments and really easy
⏹️ ▶️ Marco iPad app to control. And they can just draw something on the iPad and it’ll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco print an extruded version of that. Like to make it, you draw in two dimensions and it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco prints an extra thing. But also there’s this whole catalog on Toybox in their app. You can print a whole bunch of little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco toys and stuff like that. and it’s easy enough for children to use,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco easy enough for adults to use who aren’t 3D printing nerds also, which is nice. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I haven’t looked at Toy Box in a while because we had the big printer then, but we had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a lot of fun with Toy Box and Adam really enjoyed it. So if you want to get into baby 3D printing in a very simple way,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and you don’t need to print anything very large, Toy Box is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something to look at. Just make sure it’s still good. It was good years ago. Do some research, make sure it’s still
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good. But it probably is.
⏹️ ▶️ John This maybe is the way that modern children learn their modern modified version of patience.
⏹️ ▶️ John And when I was a kid, the way you learned patience was that you
⏹️ ▶️ John would save up your money to buy something that you had seen advertised in the back of a magazine
⏹️ ▶️ John for months and months, like in some terrible, low-resolution, postage stamp-sized ad at the back of a magazine
⏹️ ▶️ John that says, get this model plane for just X amount of dollars, and you save your allowance, and it’s got a little
⏹️ ▶️ John thing, you make a little envelope and you get your parents to give you a stamp and you mail it or whatever. And it’s supposed
⏹️ ▶️ John to come in four to six weeks. And four to six weeks when you’re a kid, seems like a thousand years.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Eventually, usually
⏹️ ▶️ John after days and days waiting for it, you forget that you even ordered it. And it seems, what seems like, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, years in the future, something arrives in your mail and you’re like, what the hell is this? You’re like, oh, it’s that thing I’d forgotten
⏹️ ▶️ John entirely about. Anyway, that’s how my generation learned patience. The way I think modern children learn patience is
⏹️ ▶️ John they get a toy 3D printer and they’re like, I’m going to have this cool toy airplane. And they’re like, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John and print. And then they run over to the thing and they’re like, where’s my airplane? And they have to wait like three
⏹️ ▶️ John hours for it to come. And three hours is the modern equivalent of four to six weeks. That’s true.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it’s just 3D printing sucks. I want the airplane now. Like everything else,
⏹️ ▶️ John like my television that comes on whenever I want to watch it immediately. And if it doesn’t, it’s broken.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, also, and it is kind of exciting too, because it doesn’t always work.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, you could if you depending on how ambitious you are with the with what you’re trying
⏹️ ▶️ John to print That’s also the experience of like when you wait four to six weeks and it comes and it’s a piece of junk That’s the 3d print not working.
⏹️ ▶️ John I waited three hours and I don’t even get the airplane that I wanted
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it’s like, you know, I had to run this print overnight and and you wake up, you know You know bleary-eyed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at 6 a.m. You run downstairs. Is it done? How did it turn out? Got all stringy or whatever,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, but yeah Yes, exactly. That’s that’s when the thing comes in then it doesn’t look like the picture in the magazine
⏹️ ▶️ John because it never ever did.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say that for whatever it’s worth, like the modern printers, they’re so much
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better that the, so far, like, I mean, again, our sample size is not great, but so far
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the modern bamboo printer compared to the old printer and the toy box, like the rate of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco failures is way lower because it’s just so much more advanced. Like everything has gotten
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. Everything has gotten more precise and more dynamic and more sensitive and all. It’s just, it’s so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco much better. So things have come a long way.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s very cool. Now I know if I need 3D printed stuff, I’m just gonna have to ask you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, and of course, of course I went all in. You know, I have like the good printer and now I’m getting all the accessories. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have like the automatic feeder.
⏹️ ▶️ John You’re gonna 3D print your own poop shoot?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I did, I did that today. I printed a poop shoot today. No. That’s for, yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the listeners. What that is, is like when the printer, like so the modern bamboo printers, they support this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing called the AMS which is basically like you can put like four spools of filament in this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco loader thing that sits on top and you can you can have models that use different filaments you can easily switch between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them and so it has to let you so it can like load a different one dynamically and what that does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is if you you know suppose you’re switching like from red to blue well there’s still a bunch of red in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like the gun and like the printhead and so it like heats it up it squirts it out the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back of the machine at this hole in the back and before it loads in the blue to start printing the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco next layer in blue or whatever. So part of using a modern 3D printer with this is like, yeah, at the back,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s just like shoots out filament sometimes. And so you get this pile. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people, of course, shocker, many people have made 3D printable models
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for accessories for 3D printing. So one of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dog, even bamboo themselves, like in some of their help articles, they’d
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be like, well, If you want to load this kind of filament or this thing this kind of thing this bracket really helps Here’s a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco link to a model of printed
⏹️ ▶️ John Which is actually kind of nice. It’s only a matter of time before we get the sci-fi thing or 3d printers printing new 3d printers
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, probably yeah, and the new the like we talked about this for cars So they where they 3d print
⏹️ ▶️ John the suspension components because they’re made of all these like organic shapes or whatever so yeah Basic 3d
⏹️ ▶️ John printing of metal 3d printing a plastic TPU Yeah, it’s gonna be a while before we can 3d print 3d
⏹️ ▶️ John printers, but we might live to see it But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I will say too, like it’s 3D printing is fun and satisfying
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for people who used who used only make software and podcasts because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it’s a you’re making a physical object you are possibly changing your physical
⏹️ ▶️ Marco world in your house or whatever. That’s very satisfying in a way that like. Or
⏹️ ▶️ John repellent if you’re like me and the reason you like computers is because there’s a perfection that can be achieved there
⏹️ ▶️ John that cannot be achieved in the real world.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the perfection was never going to happen on my bedside lamps. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the example I always use talking about the Mac is, you know, if you draw on a piece of paper and you keep erasing
⏹️ ▶️ John it over and over again, eventually you wear through the paper. You can erase over and over again in Mac paint and you never wear through the paper.
⏹️ ▶️ John That’s true. Magic of digital. But yeah, if you don’t like the magic of digital, you wanna go back to meat space,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can have some failed 3D prints.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Anyway, it’s a lot of fun. And it is, it’s fun to have like a new creative
⏹️ ▶️ Marco exploration space, um, and one that can also be practical. And that’s,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it’s, it’s been a lot of fun for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That’s awesome. I think one of these days I will get one today is not that day and tomorrow is probably not either, but that is
⏹️ ▶️ John I can imagine how janky like a Prince from the library would be, but I was thinking of a TD TV
⏹️ ▶️ John adaptation of the peripheral, which is a sci-fi book that I never read and it was a really good TV series get canceled out to one season,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is a shame, but anyway, one of the main characters works in essentially a, like a 3D printing
⏹️ ▶️ John thing where people just send their prints over the internet and get printed on these magical 3D printers that
⏹️ ▶️ John printed all sorts of stuff. Um, the, I feel like the main modern version of that is called Etsy.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, like the thing that’s holding up my wife’s Mac studio. Uh, I didn’t 3d print it, but someone 3d printed it
⏹️ ▶️ John on Etsy and I bought it from them at a tremendous markup. Uh, so that exists. I mean, Marco probably
⏹️ ▶️ John couldn’t find one for his Yolink thing, but for lots of stuff, if you’re wondering, Oh, can I just like find a design for this and
⏹️ ▶️ John send it to to the library, just search Etsy. There might be somebody selling them already.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, that’s like when I got the BMW, I wanted like a MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mount for my phone. And I looked on Amazon, I looked on Etsy, like yeah, here,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for this exact model of car, here’s a MagSafe mount that fits right in like, you know, the cup holder area, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like fits it in perfectly, leans it the way you want it. You can have it face this way, this way, or this way, and you can pick.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And yeah, I got it. They’re just 3D printed. That’s what a lot of things are. but it’s perfectly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco made for this particular need. And 3D printing allows that. Whereas like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, if, you know, before 3D printing, you would have to just have something like, you know, injection molded plastic or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And that only makes sense at certain volumes, like financially. So you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco had fewer options. So it’s nice to have, like, to be able to have like custom stuff made exactly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for your specific needs or for a very small volume product line.
⏹️ ▶️ John or to be very quick, it was like my mom, my wife’s Mac studio is like, it’s
⏹️ ▶️ John an M1 Max one. So it was the first Mac studio. And nobody, like the
⏹️ ▶️ John products weren’t out for it too. I guess, I guess, cause Apple, unlike the phones, Apple doesn’t share their Mac designs
⏹️ ▶️ John with case manufacturers or whatever. So if on day one, you wanted a
⏹️ ▶️ John custom made bracket that exactly fit a Mac studio and made it stick to the underside of your desk, Etsy 3D prints
⏹️ ▶️ John was the only thing. Today, you can find tons of companies that sell various brackets for your Mac Studios because the
⏹️ ▶️ John Mac Studio is an existing product that hasn’t changed size or shape. And, you know, but like on day one,