708: Primary, Tertiary, and Third Cousin
10 Sep 2026The iPhone Duo, the iPhone 18 Pro, the Apple Watch Series 12 and the Ultra 4, the AirPods 5, and the other AirPods 5.
Episode Description:
- 🗣️ It’s St. Jude time! 🗣️
- September 2026 event
- Post-show: Jetty update
- Members-only ATP Overtime: Apple’s new business terms in the EU
Sponsored by:
- ElevenLabs: AI Customer Support Agents
- Factor: Healthy Eating, Made Easy
- Quince: Elevated essentials and staples that last
Become a member for ATP Overtime, ad-free episodes, member specials, and our early-release, unedited “bootleg” feed!
Chapters
- The back to school
- The donate to St. Jude
- The ATP
- The event intro
- The iPhones 18 Pro
- The AI and the SOS
- The sponsor: ElevenLabs
- The chips and the thermals
- The camera
- The AppleCare One Family
- The AirPods 5
- The sponsor: Factor (code atp50off)
- The Apple Watch Series 12
- The sponsor: Quince
- The iPhone Duo
- The ending theme
- The Jetty update
The back to school
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Back from the beach.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, yes, because school started this week, right?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey He says with zero enthusiasm.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Who? Okay. Who besides most parents is excited
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for school to start?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, no, that's fair.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yeah Teachers generally aren't. uh The kids sure aren't. i mean
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I understand, as a parent, I understand. like Get out of the house, get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back to school. Like, that's a perfectly valid thing. Until I started loving summer for other reasons. And now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm like, no, the summer is over. At least, you don't have to go to school.
⏹️ ▶️ John have to drive every morning towards the school. I mean, it's… But you don't have to attend it. I feel like there's a summer lining here.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, we're at the stage of parenting where a good degree of involvement with keeping
⏹️ ▶️ Marco homework happening is required.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, where does that come from, Marco?
⏹️ ▶️ John There's an app for that, I think.
The donate to St. Jude
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We are indeed in September, which means it is Childhood Cancer Awareness
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Month. We are talking, of course, about raising money for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can go to St. Jude.org slash ATP, S-T-J-U-D-E.org slash ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to donate some amount of money to the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people at St. Jude Children's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Research Hospital. St. Jude has made it their mission for no child to die in the dawn
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of life. They don't want any children to pass away because of cancer and other
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really, really terrible diseases. Did you know that an estimated 400,000
⏹️ ▶️ Casey children worldwide get cancer each year? When St. Jude opened in 1962, childhood cancer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was largely considered incurable. Since then, St. Jude has helped push the overall survival rate in the United
⏹️ ▶️ Casey States from 20% to more than 80%. And St. Jude
⏹️ ▶️ Casey won't stop until no child dies from cancer. Curing childhood cancer is a tremendous
⏹️ ▶️ Casey undertaking. St. Jude needs your help. The generosity of donors everywhere, including our wonderful,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wonderful, wonderful ATP listeners. It supports cutting-edge research that saves lives and ensures that families
⏹️ ▶️ Casey never receive a bill from St. Jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food. Every child deserves a chance
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to live their best life, to live any life and celebrate every moment. When you support St. Jude,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can help make cures possible for kids with cancer together. You and me, listeners, we can save more
⏹️ ▶️ Casey lives. We had a person write in to ATP. They did not write in anonymously, but I'm
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to read their feedback anonymously and I've sanitized it ever so slightly. This person wrote:
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is an honest to God email that we, the three of us, got at ATP. This person wrote, Last
⏹️ ▶️ Casey December, we got the awful news that no family wants to hear. Our son was diagnosed with diffuse
⏹️ ▶️ Casey B-cell non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. We live well outside the Memphis area, so we went
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to our local pediatric hospital. We received amazing care, including the great news early on that the chemotherapy regimen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that would treat our son has been in place for the last 15 years after a very successful trial. Where,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco St. Jude Children's Research.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Hospital? That is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey correct. The anonymous person continues: Although the journey was brutal, through God's grace and the proven treatment plan, our
⏹️ ▶️ Casey son was declared cancer-free in May of this year. He's back in school and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey getting stronger every day. That is an honest-to-goodness real-life story from
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a fellow listener to this very program. So, if you want to support things like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this, if you want to save children's lives, please give a dollar, $5, $10,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey whatever you can give to St. Jude at St. Jude.org, S-T-J-U-D-E.org
⏹️ ▶️ Casey slash ATP. Now, Marco, we have some breaking, wonderful news from earlier today. Can you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tell us about this, please?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco As I discussed last episode, the Marco offset previously was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the suggested minimum donation for our listeners for St. Jude that you would basically take the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amount over the starting MSRP of the new iPhone and maybe Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch and whatever that you possibly ordered or about to order or are planning to order during
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this wonderful iPhone event season. The difference between the base price and what you actually paid after all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the taxes and add-ons and cases and apple cares and everything else, storage upgrades, all that stuff. That was your suggested
⏹️ ▶️ Marco minimum donation to St. Jude. And last episode, I introduced new levels two and three
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the Marco offset. Level two was you also add on to that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whatever you spent on AI this month. Because if there's one thing that we
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need some kind of consumer absolution from, besides
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rampant consumerism, buying new phones to replace phones that work, it's AI. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you contribute an equal amount that you contributed to AI this month as part of your Marco offset,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are absolved from. I probably shouldn't be guaranteeing that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You Probably not, but that's okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco From the guilt of using AI, if you want even more absolution, level
⏹️ ▶️ Marco three is instead of contributing what you spent on AI this month, contribute what you spent on AI
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this year. That is level three of the Marco offset, in addition to the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco offset that was already there. Now, listener Brendan Beckerer has a site
⏹️ ▶️ Marco called theMarcoOffset.com, where Brendan has basically made a calculator for this in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco past years. Well, Brendan wrote to say the Marco Offset Calculator is live for 2026, includes the new levels
⏹️ ▶️ Marco mentioned last week. So it includes calculation for your AI use for levels two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and three. So thank you to Brendan Beckerer. And please, everyone, consider contributing to St.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Jude in this way if you can. It really makes a difference.
⏹️ ▶️ John John, anything to add? I do not. Give to St. Jude. It's easy. And just make it part of your annual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. To any degree, any amount that you can. One last time: stjude.org slash
The ATP
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so we are skipping follow-up as is as per the rules of the accidental
⏹️ ▶️ Casey tech podcast. We are going to jump straight into today. The rules of this podcast is
⏹️ ▶️ John it does not begin with the the. Oh my
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey can I get this? Can I get anybody
⏹️ ▶️ John The last time you and Mark argue with me that there was a the in front of the name of their podcast, I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco swear to you there is not. Wait, I never argued that it was only ever Casey. I think it was you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John It was definitely not me.
⏹️ ▶️ John No, there is no the. There is no. There never has never been a the. Cut this out. This is for bootleg people only. Please, no
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm not cutting it out. This is staying in. But fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John But like, can we get
⏹️ ▶️ John agreement? So I'm not taking crazy pills. There's no the in front of the name of our podcast. I know sometimes grammatically it makes sense to
⏹️ ▶️ John put the the there and we do it and blah, blah, blah, but please.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So wait, so what was I supposed to say? Due to the rules of accidental tech Podcast? that makes no sense. Or you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can say ATP. You can always say ATP. God, you're killing me. Next thing you're going to tell me is that it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the iPhone. It's just iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ John see, that's a case where we all disagree with Apple. It's like the JIF Gif thing. It's the same thing. Where we disagree with the creator.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, what can I tell you? Apple's the one who's saying that, like, anyway, whatever. I'm saying this is what we do with our
⏹️ ▶️ John podcast. Apple can decide their rules for their phone and we can ignore those rules because we didn't make the iPhone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm not sure. I'm not sure we have unity on our own rules, but that's neither here nor
⏹️ ▶️ John We should, but we totally should. There's never been a the.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it's what's what's most um damning for your case here, Casey, is that there's no the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in the acronym. It's not T-A-T-P. There's no the in the show artwork in the title
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and the feeds. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it never appears anywhere.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Well, I'm not saying,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm not saying that it was not an uppercase THE. It was a lowercase THE. This is silly. We got
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to move on. I want to go to bed before tomorrow. All right, so.
The event intro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We have an Apple event today, and it started with this very cinematic opening
⏹️ ▶️ Casey scene with everyone telling, like, oh, this is how you should start something off in a dramatic way. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it wasn't particularly relevant. Like, it was fine and interesting, I suppose.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But I don't know, I didn't, I don't really get why we did that, but it wasn't bad.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, my first thought was that Apple may have too much money because like these were scenes
⏹️ ▶️ John from like like full budget scenes from you know, movies of the genres that they were. made. Granted, they were like
⏹️ ▶️ John three second scenes, but it was different setups, different locations, different actors, different, just
⏹️ ▶️ John like, how much money do you have to do all these different setups for like a three minute, as you note, pointless,
⏹️ ▶️ John not particularly related to technology intro intro. Anyway, it was blessedly short. It was extremely
⏹️ ▶️ John well done. Man, they have a lot of money.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, but they didn't spend a lot of it on writers.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's not going to like, I think maybe they're flexing like, hey, you know, we, we do, we have a premium
⏹️ ▶️ John television service right now, and we, we fund a lot of really good television programs. So they have access
⏹️ ▶️ John to all that talent or whatever, but who knows? Maybe there's no overlap, but just a lot of money. And I have to say,
⏹️ ▶️ John and they make this point in the thing that, you know, all this was shot on iPhone, blah, blah, blah. I thought this presentation,
⏹️ ▶️ John I thought it looked really good. I mean, that's not up to the iPhone, right? It's just up to the, you know, the direction and the lighting and, you
⏹️ ▶️ John know, the setups and blah, blah, blah. But I thought everything in this presentation looked even better
⏹️ ▶️ John than usual, which is a high bar.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. Then we got uh Tim at the very end saying, no, no, no,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no. Or well, like, oh, here's how you start the thing. You're in California. You follow a car into a tunnel, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a tunnel leading to Apple Park, blah, blah, blah. And then eventually you see a super extreme close-up and it says, no, no,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no, it's not me. That's your guy. That's your opener. And then we get John Turnas. I thought
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you were going to do a passing of the torch, which I'm not sure that it was necessary, but if you're
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to do it, I personally felt like this was a very tasteful, very quick, easy way to do it.
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn't think they were going to do it at all. I thought it would just be like, look, it's not like it's a surprise. This has been a long time coming. It
⏹️ ▶️ John happened, blah, blah, blah. But I was surprised it was in there at all. When I heard his voice, I was surprised. And I
⏹️ ▶️ John will say that whoever directed this actually got the first, the closest
⏹️ ▶️ John thing to a genuine performance of emotion from Tim Cook
⏹️ ▶️ John with his one little line of like, no, no, no, not me. That's your guy. I don't think he's ever said anything
⏹️ ▶️ John with as much emotion as he said his one line here. And I'm going to mostly chuckle it up to the fact that the director
⏹️ ▶️ John did enough takes to say, no, we're not taking that one, Tim. You're gonna you're gonna do it one more time and you're
⏹️ ▶️ John going to have actual feeling. uh And he did it. Either that or he's like, you know, he's got
⏹️ ▶️ John senioritis, right? And so he's like, I'm out of here. Finally, I can let a tiny amount of emotion
⏹️ ▶️ John show in an Apple video. And he did for three seconds.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I thought it was a very nice, very Apple way to do the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco handoff. It's like a little bit overproduced, a little bit stilted,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit content-free, but makes you feel slightly good. It was the perfect, like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Tim Cook. And, you know, going into, you know, Ternus being there and having his
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first address to the audience as CEO. And that was also like, it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was perfect transitional Tim Cook era style of like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ternus walked, you see Ternus walking around Apple Park for a few minutes saying things.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Saying what? I have no idea. Like all of the words he said just sounded vaguely
⏹️ ▶️ Marco good and meant nothing, but it was exactly what it needed to be. It was, here's the new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco guy. It was handed, you know, Tim passed the baton to John Ternus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and here's the new guy. And he's doing, don't worry, everybody, exactly what everyone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco expects. He's also like, I thought Turnus was like a little bit stilted. You know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco he's new to this. You can tell that he doesn't have as much practice doing this as Tim
⏹️ ▶️ Marco did. And he will, I'm sure, you know, get a little smoother with time. But it's like a little bit stilted,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a little bit tight and forced and a lot content-free in that opening address.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But this is Turnus doing Tim Cook's thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And eventually, I hope Turnus will start doing his own thing. That's most likely what's going to happen. But he has to kind of like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, develop into that in the public persona and in his own role
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here. You know, in the same way that like the very first season of The Office
⏹️ ▶️ Marco U.S., tried to be like The Office UK, and it was weird and kind of bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Actually, it was very bad at first. And like, you know, Parks and Wreck first tried to be The Office,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and it was also weird and bad until it kind of found its own style. I think this is like, this is Turnus
⏹️ ▶️ Marco taking on the Tim Cook style, and it's weird, and it's kind of maybe it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not as bad as The Office US season one, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Turnus' style
⏹️ ▶️ Marco grows into as he as he kind of gets his own style here. um
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Because this wasn't it. What we saw here was just Turnus in a Tim Cook outfit, basically. But like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to see like how this goes over time.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's my note on this section. I just said that I thought the uh the director whoever got a uh a slight
⏹️ ▶️ John and almost a genuine performance out of Tim Cook where he expressed a tiny bit of emotion for a fraction of a second. But what
⏹️ ▶️ John he also did was performed comfort, enthusiasm,
⏹️ ▶️ John and gusto that overshadowed Turnus
⏹️ ▶️ John because he does this little intro and he gives this little bit of emotion. You're like, Tim, I didn't even know you could raise your voice
⏹️ ▶️ John in that way and express emotion with your voice on an Apple video. I couldn't even believe it. And he's right in your face
⏹️ ▶️ John and he's loud and he's just so expressive. And then they cut to Tim. Well, it's all relative.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, so expressive for Tim Cook.
⏹️ ▶️ John but still. And then they cut to Turnus, who first of all, I think his audio equalization was messed up. He's like
⏹️ ▶️ John me in that his voice just recorded straight sounds terrible. So it needs a lot of help to not sound awful.
⏹️ ▶️ John He just sounded like muted and like he was talking from inside of a paper bag. And he was just like,
⏹️ ▶️ John like Tim just overpowered him and basically saying, see, I'm out of here. Remember me, the dynamic
⏹️ ▶️ John figure often seen crushing ice and scaling walls? It's like, no, but like right now it seems like you're that
⏹️ ▶️ John guy. And then Turnus is just this little lilting flower. Now, I do think in the rest of the keynote, when he got to do
⏹️ ▶️ John more normal Turnus things that he felt much more comfortable. So I think he did a fine job. But this, this
⏹️ ▶️ John is my note on this thing. It makes it seem like Tim Cook was this amazing figure, which we know he wasn't.
⏹️ ▶️ John He was very, you know, very, very staid and boring and just did not express anything. And then it makes Turnus
⏹️ ▶️ John seem a little bit limp. But, you know, this, I like as of the rest of the video, I think
⏹️ ▶️ John he just, he was just doing his normal Turnus stuff that he always does in these videos and he was pretty good at it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I thought on the whole, Turnus did a good job. Yes, he still did. Yes, he's got a Tim Cook suit on. But in the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey grand scheme of things, I thought he did pretty darn well. He also spent a little time in this
⏹️ ▶️ Casey opening montage, if you will. Maybe not montage, but this opening segment, talking about kind
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of his reestablishing maybe his, maybe Apple's values, kind of the corporate values, the hardware
⏹️ ▶️ Casey values, software values. I don't know that it was necessary, but I don't necessarily begrudge
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. I think it was reasonably quick. It was reasonable to kind of set the tone for here's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey how my tenure is going to be at Apple. I thought it was pretty good. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then they start talking, over, he starts talking about the intelligent personal hub, which is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what's going to be at the center of everything they do. Uh, I don't know. John, what do you think that intelligent personal hub
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, so there was two parts of this. One was like, you know, we don't collect your stuff and sell
⏹️ ▶️ John it or whatever, which is fine, but they do show us a lot more ads than usual. But anyway, they did that, which is fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like basically saying we don't have the same business model as other companies. And then the other part of this little section was
⏹️ ▶️ John essentially a preemptive shot, preemptive shot over the bow of OpenAI hardware,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? It was basically saying, you know, intelligence, blah, blah, blah,
⏹️ ▶️ John your info, blah, blah, blah, privacy, blah, blah, blah. And how will you access that information? You need something
⏹️ ▶️ John that's always with you and that has the power to do these things or whatever. And it's like this whole big giant construction.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's like, and you know what? Guess what? The answer is the iPhone, not anything anyone else is making.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like not a pendant, not a donut, not anything. Like the answer is the iPhone. Like, wow, amazing Apple.
⏹️ ▶️ John So you're telling me that the product you already make is actually the ideal device for AI? And I'm not saying they're wrong. Like they're
⏹️ ▶️ John probably right, right? But that was the point they were making. Hey, other people are making all sorts of AI stuff,
⏹️ ▶️ John but actually the phone is the right answer and we have the best phone. And, you know it and it's totally preemptive because
⏹️ ▶️ John there's no, there's actually no competing product that is like a threat to the iPhone at this point, but OpenAI sure wants
⏹️ ▶️ John there to be one. So that was the segment of the thing, which is like, OpenAI, stay away. The phone's where it's at.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So, yeah. So, you know, John Ternus took a few shots across Google's bow and said things like,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you know, others see your info as data to collect and to store. Apple intelligence
⏹️ ▶️ Casey runs on device whenever it can. Personal intelligence that's actually personal. iPhone brings powerful
⏹️ ▶️ Casey AI capabilities together with your personal context on a device that you have with you all the time. So we're establishing, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey here's why the iPhone is important. I'm sorry, John. Here's why iPhone is important.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John No, that's what Apple does,
⏹️ ▶️ John we do all the opposite, just like the GIF, GIF person. Remember, he tells us to say GIF, but we all disagree and say GIF.
⏹️ ▶️ John So that's the Apple situation.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It's the George Lucas clause. Sometimes the creator is wrong.
The iPhones 18 Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So Yeah, we start with the iPhone 18 Pro and Pro Max. It's got the A20 Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The highlighted feature is a variable aperture main camera. It's color matched aluminum
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and back glass. So if you think about the iPhone's 17 Pro, there's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that inset glass section where you would plug or snap on like a MagSafe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey thing. And that's a slightly different color than the rest of the frame of the phone. And now
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they're color matched between the glass and the aluminum.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's what they say in the thing with the color matching, but we talked about this when the 17 Pro came out. It's not like the 17
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro wasn't color matched. The
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey problem was there
⏹️ ▶️ John was a texture difference. So at a certain angle in the light, it exactly matched the color of the aluminum.
⏹️ ▶️ John But if you tilted it just off of that angle, then it didn't match it anymore. So I know what they're saying. Like they're just think it's color
⏹️ ▶️ John matched now. It will look the same in more lighting conditions. But I think all they did was change the surface treatment so that the scattering
⏹️ ▶️ John effect is similar. And so it looks like the same color in more conditions. So I'll see when I get mine to, you know, tilt
⏹️ ▶️ John it to see if I can get it to change color or whatever. But that's that's the upshot here. I don't think the orange one wasn't
⏹️ ▶️ John color matched. It was just, it
⏹️ ▶️ John color matched at like
⏹️ ▶️ John angle of incident light and every place else will look different.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That may be true, but I don't think I've ever looked at either Aaron's phone or mine and thought, oh, that is perfectly matched.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't recall having seen it.
⏹️ ▶️ John got to find like the 0.05 degrees where it is perfectly matched. I'm twirling mine around now. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is a point. It's just, it's a
⏹️ ▶️ John point. It's very narrow. If you're not exactly on that angle, it doesn't match anymore. And that's, I think it's just because
⏹️ ▶️ John it's not like they don't know how to match colors. It's the surface treatment.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey In any case, we've got four colors. We've got black, silver, glacier, which actually looks really good to me. It's like a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very light blue, almost white. And Burgundy, which as a Virginia Tech Hokie,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I should probably buy that one if I do end up buying an 18 Pro. But I don't know. I think the Glacier looks really good.
⏹️ ▶️ John Burgundy is not Deep Cherry, which everyone was like, oh, it's going to be Deep Cherry or whatever. And not only is it not called Deep Cherry,
⏹️ ▶️ John because obviously the names are difficult to leak, even though the leaks basically got the color right. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it is less deep cherry than deep cherry would have been. Like it is lighter than I thought
⏹️ ▶️ John it would be in Apple's publicity shots. It is not as deep and dark
⏹️ ▶️ John as a lot of the spy shots were. It's a little bit like sort of more metallic-y,
⏹️ ▶️ John brighter, and I think maybe not as strong as the deep cherry ones that I saw. In the
⏹️ ▶️ John spy shots, but maybe also less offensive to people. My wife loves the
⏹️ ▶️ John She's… this is one of her favorite colors. She's not getting this phone, but she actually does like that color. So there's one vote for somebody
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Fair enough. I think these colors are a lot more muted than the orange was. Oh, definitely.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Based on all the leaks and everything, I was at least expecting the glacier, the light blue color.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I was expecting that to be a little more saturated, but as I'm watching everyone's YouTube hands-on videos and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco stuff from the hands-on area, I'm seeing these colors in kind of as close to a realistic view as I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can at this moment. They all look kind of restrained. The burgundy was a lot more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco restrained than I thought it would be. The blue is that as well. They brought back black because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everyone wished there was black on the 17 line. And of course, silver
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because some people like to make no choice. But but ultimately like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think it says a lot about the success of the color of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone 17 Pro with the orange. That like they led the introduction
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the new Pro iPhone. They led it with the colors. That was the very first thing they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco showed us and talked about about the new iPhone Pro, which if you look like before the 17
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro with the orange one, the colors of the Pro line were like almost an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco apology at the end of the Pro segment that they would have. Like they would talk about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco everything else first. The chip, the camera, the screen, all this stuff. And then at the very end, it's available
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in four colors. They're all different shades of gray. Good luck. Um, And this is like, wow, we made people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco care about colors with the orange phone. Turns out people like pro phone colors. It was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco such a big hit. We're going to lead with that this time. That, I think, says a lot.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, I agree. I just wish that the colors were a little more bold. Um, I think that would have been nicer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, and I think ultimately it's going to go in cycles. If you look at how Apple did colors
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the the non-pro equipment over the years, that that's always had you know, much better color
⏹️ ▶️ Marco options. Um, They also kind of went in waves of vibrance,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would say. Colors are fashion. iPhones are fashion. We're going to see later when we get to the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch section, there's a lot of fashion influence of the colors of the watches going on right now.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Last year, they made a splash with the orange one, but not every year is going to have a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco big, vibrant, splashy color. This year, I'm sure through lots of research
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and lots of analysis of trends around the world, they decided the colors this year are going to be a little bit more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco restrained, but a little bit different. And it's not a new orange. It's two totally different colors.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I think that's the pattern I would expect to see. I just, I hope that the bold orange
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was not like a one-off that we're never going to see again. Because you can already see like with this color line,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they're going a little bit safer. Like these don't seem as risky. They definitely seem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like they're like stepping back into their their comfort zone, which in this case is a very bad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing. So I'm I'm hoping they remain uncomfortable and they, somebody kicks them back out
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of their comfort zone next year and we get you know, some kind of, you know, a little bit more striking color
⏹️ ▶️ John I think the burgundy is just as saturated as the orange. Orange is just a brighter color than burgundy. Burgundy is by its nature
⏹️ ▶️ John a darker color, but it is at least saturated, just like the black is saturated. The silver and the glacier are the typical
⏹️ ▶️ John pale ones that we always have. But like, yeah, that burgundy, I mean, that is as saturated a burgundy
⏹️ ▶️ John as the orange was. It's just burgundy is not as bold a color as orange. That's the bottom
⏹️ ▶️ Marco line. I wouldn't necessarily call it saturated, but the burgundy at least is a strong
⏹️ ▶️ Marco color. And I like it for that. Even though it's not really my thing, it is like a statement.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is a strong color. It's not as vibrant as the orange,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but it is at least an opinion. Whereas when they were going through all the different shades
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of gray in the non-sexy way, it was all just like, we're going to have as little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco opinion as possible. Like last year, like the iPhone Air colors, where the iPhone Air came
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in three shades of very, very close to white and black. And you look at the three shades of white, you're like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco why are these even different colors? You know, that was like, we're afraid to make any statement whatsoever. This
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not like that. This is making a statement. You know, this year, the statement it's making is a little bit
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more low-key than last year's color.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. The 18 Pro and Pro Max are the same size as 17 Pro and Pro Max.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The Pro is five grams heavier. The Pro Max is 16 grams heavier. They also, allegedly,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey per Mac rumors, have 12 gigs of RAM, same as the 17 Pro and Pro Max.
⏹️ ▶️ John grams heavier on the Max is a lot. Well, it's all battery. There was one moment
⏹️ ▶️ John in the video where somebody said, and blah, blah, blah, something, something, the smaller
⏹️ ▶️ John size of the 18 Pro. I was like, did they make the 18 Pro smaller?
⏹️ ▶️ John they meant compared to the folding phone, which we'll get to in a little bit. But like, I was excited for one moment, but they're
⏹️ ▶️ John literally exactly the same size. Although they didn't give measurements on what we all assume is to be the
⏹️ ▶️ John larger camera plateau. Apple really never gives that type of measurement. So we'll see when we see
⏹️ ▶️ John more videos about it.
The AI and the SOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Then they made a little bit of talking about Apple intelligence, and they made kind of an offhanded
⏹️ ▶️ Casey point. Well, maybe not offhanded, they highlighted it, but one way or another, they said two and a half billion Siri requests per day.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Somebody pointed out, I forget who I saw this that posted this, but that would probably be one and a quarter billion
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for if it actually worked the first time. And then they noted,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or I noted, that on the little slide that they put up, they said that they support
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or will support Chinese traditional and simplified, I believe is what it said. But interestingly, Apple intelligence
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is not available in China, or at least won't be initially anyhow.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, those languages are spoken in different places too.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, no, I know, but it still struck me as striking, for lack of a better word.
⏹️ ▶️ John they doing something where they have to use like one of like some China AI model instead of using
⏹️ ▶️ John the ones that they have? Like this is a whole big deal with how they're going to get Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey intelligence to China,
⏹️ ▶️ John and it involves using entirely different tech stack, as usual.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. They also noted that there will be some server-side AI limits, which we've heard about in the past. They said
⏹️ ▶️ Casey increased access will be available in most iCloud Plus
⏹️ ▶️ John plans. They keep talking about this. They've said it a few times that every time they say it, they're like, hand wave, hand wave. All right.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, did you see that they extended the free satellite SOS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John for the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 14, 15, and 16 again? They're
⏹️ ▶️ John that can down the road. I mean, hey, that's what you want, right? It's free.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. I mean, I believe, like, I know I said back then, like, they're probably just never going to let that expire
⏹️ ▶️ Marco because why? Like, why would they ever let this emergency life-saving thing on an iPhone expire?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, because one person dies from that, and that's a disaster. Like, they would never in a million years do it. Whereas
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they would love to keep that going forever for free for every iPhone that supports
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. That way they can eventually say things like, this person's life was saved by this feature.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they would much rather do that. So, as long as the satellite SOS stuff is not costing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple a huge amount of money, which it probably isn't, just by volume, I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't know. As we discussed last time, I think there are ways to make it so it's free for everybody to use. But then, like, after
⏹️ ▶️ John it saves your life, charge you money. And I don't put it past them to figure out how to do that.
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The chips and the thermals
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, let's talk about performance. They talk about the A20 Pro. I'll try to run through this quickly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It is a two nanometer process, which we expected. A six core CPU with two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey new super cores, which they specifically quoted or said are desktop class.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Four new efficiency cores, allegedly 20% faster. A seven core GPU with 40%
⏹️ ▶️ Casey faster graphics performance. Neural accelerators, which mind you are different than the neural engine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The neural accelerators are two times faster on floating point math. It has twice
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the neural engine with 32 total cores and two times the compute power. 50% increase in memory
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bandwidth, which I reckon will make a big deal. Custom packaging inspired by the M series,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they said, with the silicon die side by side with memory. The CPU is connected directly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to the vapor chamber now for, quote, dramatically improved thermal performance.
⏹️ ▶️ John And what do we call that, Casey?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John right? None of
⏹️ ▶️ John you watch the meme video. I try to educate you on your history, but no.
⏹️ ▶️ John Christian Side RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John Remember the Christian Side You've already forgotten. It's three episodes ago. Give me that Christian Side RAM. That's what's inspired
⏹️ ▶️ John by the M series. If you look at an M series SOC, they have RAM next to the SOC. And
⏹️ ▶️ John now the iPhone does too, which, as we said in the past episode, when we were talking about the rumor, that means that the RAM is not
⏹️ ▶️ John on top of the SOC. And so you're not trying to cool down a sandwich of RAM and SOC.
⏹️ ▶️ John Instead, you've got the SOC and right next to it is the RAM. And you can put the heat dissipating things right up against the RAM.
⏹️ ▶️ John And most importantly, right up against the SOC. Um, and like the, uh, M six, they
⏹️ ▶️ John doubled the neural engine. So that's a thing now. They're just, you know, we're going to have two of those when once we had
⏹️ ▶️ John one uh, cause I guess it pays dividends. Um, They didn't talk too much about the cores, but they both had new.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's a new super core. It's a new efficiency core. So I guess these are the better efficiency cores and maybe the same super
⏹️ ▶️ John cores from the M6, but we'll find that out when people start slicing these chips open.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it does seem like there's a lot of common elements here between the A20 Pro and the M6,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which we would expect. Like that is what they usually do. But it seems like the phone chips keep getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco closer to the desktop chips.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, see, the thing, like they used to do, the phone chips would have the cores first and the M series would have them later. So the phone would
⏹️ ▶️ John come out and then like the current M series would not have the same
⏹️ ▶️ John I wonder if they're in sync now. or Anyway, the schedules are all weird, so we don't know. But they the way Apple refers
⏹️ ▶️ John to everything, new super cores and new efficiency cores. I just can't keep track of it anymore. But we'll find out
⏹️ ▶️ John when people, again, slice the tops off these chips and start looking at the silicon on the actual chips,
⏹️ ▶️ John and then we'll figure out which core is which.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. They have much better thermal design like we were talking about. The vapor
⏹️ ▶️ Casey chamber has three times the surface area versus the 17 Pro. It has 80% recycled stainless steel.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It has nano twin copper material to move heat away from the display. It's a 40% gain versus
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the 17 Pro and twice as good as the 16 Pro and older. I can tell you that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey having been to a football game weekend before last, I think it was. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Having been to a football game where I'm outside
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a long time in the direct sun, that is like my stress test for thermals on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the iPhone. And where the, I think the 15, certainly the 14 was like this,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where after getting in the direct sun for more than a few minutes, the screen got
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so dim and dark that you could literally barely read it, or at least I could. The 17
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro definitely dims itself, but never to the point that it's difficult to read. And allegedly,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the 18 Pro is going to be even better. So if you're one of those people like me that has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey had real hard had a real hard time uh using your phone in direct sunlight, you should really consider the iPhone 18 Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because I think it'll be way, way better.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, if you look at the pictures of it, like the whole, the whole back of the phone it's just one giant vapor chamber.
⏹️ ▶️ John Instead of like, oh, we put a little vapor chamber near where the chips are. No, it's like just covers the whole back of the phone. And then the the, whatever, the
⏹️ ▶️ John nano twin copper material. Now, I don't know if past phones also had some kind of heat dissipating
⏹️ ▶️ John thing behind the entire screen, but if they did, Apple had never touted it before. And so I have lots of hope
⏹️ ▶️ John that this will help specifically with the situation where, like you were just talking about, Casey, where you have a phone out in the sunlight
⏹️ ▶️ John and sun is going through the screen and bouncing around there, a little greenhouse effect and heating things up
⏹️ ▶️ John because just from the direct sunlight on the screen, now the entire screen has essentially a heat dissipating thing behind
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole screen. And hopefully that is pulling heat out of there and into the place where the vapor chamber can
⏹️ ▶️ John deal with it. So I have high hopes for the cooling capacity of this phone based on the pictures they showed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And that's the kind of thing, like, like Casey was just saying, like good thermals in a phone can just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make such a difference in everyday capabilities and annoyances and limitations.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is what like part of what I was complaining about last episode about the iPhone Air is that the iPhone Air kind of went
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the other direction. It has terrible thermals. But the iPhone 17 Pro has great thermals
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thanks to the vapor chamber compared to the 16 Pro. And now they've done an even bigger step
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in that same direction. The iPhone 18 Pro now, allegedly, if this is all correct, which it probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, has even better thermals than the 17 Pro did, which was already very good.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this should help a lot with things like having the thing work in the sun,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco working in cars like in the summertime, and all the way up to things like sustained gaming
⏹️ ▶️ Marco performance, which I'm not really that kind of gamer on my phone, but a lot of people do that kind of thing. It does matter a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. The iPhone 18 Pro and Pro Max have the N1, which is Wi-Fi 7 and Bluetooth
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 6. Additionally, according to Mac rumors, and this is a very,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sketchy was the word that came to mind. That's a bit dramatic, but a very unclear situation.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think I believe they're sourcing because they're basically going off of like the bands, like the Wi-Fi,
⏹️ ▶️ John or not Wi-Fi, the cellular bands that are supported by the chips. And there is a difference between the 18 Pro and the 18 Pro Max.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I think this is plausible.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So they are saying that the 18 Pro has the C2 cellular chip, but the 18 Pro Max does not.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And we'll put a link in the show notes to that. With regard to the battery, they're saying in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey short, a whole heck of a lot better. And also, you can get half a charge in 15 minutes via
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a wire. And five minutes of wired charging gives you six hours of video playback,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is really darn impressive. Then we got some gaming from Kayan Drantz.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I went to sleep for a little bit.
The camera
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But then we talked about the camera still with cayenne uh We, as I mentioned earlier, get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey variable aperture So there's six laser-cut blades, each of which is thinner than a human hair. They made
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their own specialized polymer composite. There's a new rotor mechanism, a custom design lens,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and it's automatic based on the scene. In in the dark, you should get up to 50% percent more light. Night
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mode will give you faster capture. I've seen a couple of different people cite
⏹️ ▶️ Casey different F-stop numbers, and the one that seems most consistent is f 1.8 but I've seen 1.4
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something in other.
⏹️ ▶️ John they showed some sample shots that are 1.4. I mean, the F numbers are all weird because everything about this camera is tiny. The sensor
⏹️ ▶️ John is tiny. The lens is tiny. The distance between the lens and the sensor is tiny. like So I don't know. like all these
⏹️ ▶️ John uh measurements that have to do with photography have all sorts of weird historical reasons for why they
⏹️ ▶️ John are what they are. And it's hard to translate them directly to a phone situation. But you just have to judge from, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John comparing to other iPhones, which have been roughly the same size. That's where you can get an
⏹️ ▶️ John idea of the measurements of this. But the important part is, yeah, that it has an actual mechanical aperture, which means the hole
⏹️ ▶️ John that lets light in can change size from a big hole to a smaller hole. That's a thing that is
⏹️ ▶️ John useful in photography. Every other iPhone up to this point has had different apertures
⏹️ ▶️ John on the different cameras sometimes, but each individual circle on the back of your phone had a fixed aperture,
⏹️ ▶️ John which meant the hole that let the light in to hit the sensor was always the same size on each one of those circles.
⏹️ ▶️ John The circles could be different from each other, but it never changed size. And real cameras have an aperture
⏹️ ▶️ John on them that can change size. And now so does one of the cameras on the iPhone 18
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro and Pro Max. Yeah, now I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco there's this is going to probably be a fairly small deal, not as big of a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco deal as you think because of its variability. But so the four apertures that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it supports are F1.48, 1.8, 2.8, 4.0.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The outgoing iPhone 17 Pro camera has a fixed aperture of 1.78.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this one, 1.48, is its widest open, which means if the sensor has remained the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same size, which it probably has, that means the 18 Pro camera can let in more light when it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wide open. And most of the time, that's going to be what it's doing. Like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco most people shooting most of the time are generally probably going to be shooting with the lens wide
⏹️ ▶️ Marco open unless you're trying to achieve certain effects, which most people aren't, which is why I'm kind of surprised they even put this in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here at all. But anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the point they made with the narrow aperture is true because that annoys me with my current phone camera. If you have a
⏹️ ▶️ John bunch of people who are varying distances from the camera, but the close one is close to you,
⏹️ ▶️ John it's hard to get them all in focus with a fixed aperture. And so being able to narrow it on a sunny day, that's the picture
⏹️ ▶️ John they show, like people on a staircase. And it's like, look, the faraway person's face is also kind of in focus. And so is the close-up
⏹️ ▶️ John person because they narrowed it to F4 or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that is true. But I think what I think might be a little bit misleading about this, if for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people who are thinking about it that way, is that on a very, very small sensor like this, F1.48
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does not mean the same thing as F1.4 on your SLR lens.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does not mean the same thing at all. It's much more, I don't know the math right off the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John top of my head.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't know what the equivalent is, but they're all wildly different than you think. But still, 1.8 is bigger
⏹️ ▶️ John than 4. They're just not the same as that would be on a real camera.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. The other thing to keep in mind here is that, again, because of the light gathering abilities
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of these sensors and how tiny they are, most of the time, again, most
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the time, the phone is going to run it at the widest open aperture anyway. So if you want that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco effect of having a lot more depth of field than you even normally would have, you're going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have to have a lot of light or have it be doing a lot of noise reduction and blurring of the picture afterwards.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So it's always a trade-off. Finally, I would point out that the aperture blades that they showed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco off are few in number and straight compared to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any SLR lens that's worth it. Yeah, you're not getting good bokeh bubbles. Right. So when the iris
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of a good SLR lens contracts, it tries to make the hole in the middle as close to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a circle as it can. Now, you see how it works in the video, how it has these blades that kind of slide
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in. So when, you know, real cameras, like when they design these blades, they usually have at least eight of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This, you know, there's only six in this. And they make the blades curved so that as they squish
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in, it is closer to a circle shape. And the nicer the lens is,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco usually the more blades there are, and maybe the more curved they are. I don't know what that part, but they at least add blades. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what you're trying to do is approximate a circle because whatever shape the iris
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that results from them closing in, any blob you have in the background of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the blurry area, any blob like a point light source especially, will
⏹️ ▶️ Marco take on that shape.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I don't think I knew that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it to be a circle or you want it to be close to a circle. And if you look at like, you know, the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco comparisons on like lens reviews of like cheaper lenses with fewer blades versus the more expensive lenses, like they'll show
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you the difference. It's pretty apparent. So to have only six blades and have them be straight,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you're not going to get the look that you want without some processing.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, the blades are tiny, though. That's why.
⏹️ ▶️ John Everything about this is so tiny. I don't really blame them. No, agreed. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this is all kind of why I think like if what you want is an SLR look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco without computational tricks, I don't think this is going to bring you as close to that as you
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I think it's just giving a little bit more flexibility for for the apertures that are all
⏹️ ▶️ John effectively very tiny holes. And like again, in the grand scheme of things, how big physically speaking in millimeters
⏹️ ▶️ John is this hole leading to the sensor and how big is the sensor? Everything is so tiny. Having a little bit of flexibility
⏹️ ▶️ John here is good. I'm looking forward to it, especially, you know, given the manual controls that we're going to get to in a second. If I
⏹️ ▶️ John can actually pick it and have some say over it, I mean, maybe it'll just be like the slider and liquid glass where it's just like, look, there's
⏹️ ▶️ John only two settings all the way to the left and all the way to the right. Why bother in the middle? But we'll see what the auto setting does for me.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, exactly. And I think overall, like this sounds like a very good camera upgrade
⏹️ ▶️ Marco broadly for lots of reasons, mostly in the software, honestly. The hardware doesn't seem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like it's that different. But the larger, widest aperture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going from f1.78 to f1.48, that will help everything.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That will help low light performance. Like that's that is always a good welcome change.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's what they were showing off with that video of like, look, it's like uh lighting a match in a totally dark scene and the match
⏹️ ▶️ John is illuminating the actor's face. It's like, oh, shot on iPhone. Yeah. There you go.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Alrighty. So we got some discussions about the software and this is where we start talking about pro controls.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, First of all, there's cinematic effects from regular video after capture at 60 frames per second. That's pretty cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can do time lapse in 4K with Dolby Vision. uh, The audio mix where you select like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not not scenes is the word I'm looking for, but like, oh, I want to focus on what's in the frame. I want to focus on the environment, whatever the case may
⏹️ ▶️ Casey be. Well, that feature is now has music support, which is cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So they showed like a couple of jazz musicians playing on the street.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, I will say also for the video, like again, this is all shot on iPhone, blah, blah, blah. They
⏹️ ▶️ John really went with HDR in this whole presentation. I know lots of past presentations have been HDR.
⏹️ ▶️ John I know because I've struggled to download the stupid HDR version from Apple's HLS servers because of some kind
⏹️ ▶️ John of bad Akamai node near me that refuses to let me download
⏹️ ▶️ John them. But anyway, I know they've done HDR a lot and for, I think, for a couple of years now.
⏹️ ▶️ John But having watched this on my Pro Display XDR, I thought their use of HDR in
⏹️ ▶️ John these segments was really good. Like it wasn't like, look, the sun is in your eyes. uh
⏹️ ▶️ John Everything was just a little bit brighter, a little bit sparklier, a little bit richer.
⏹️ ▶️ John It looked really good. And if that was, if that's the shot on the iPhone stuff, again, a lot of it has to do with, you know, obviously the people
⏹️ ▶️ John who are directing the scenes and deciding where to stage them and how to light them and stuff like that. But I think their
⏹️ ▶️ John their taste in how to deploy HDR in a video that is essentially people standing in front of things talking,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they did a really good job of that this time. I'm not sure how much of that to credit the phone for,
⏹️ ▶️ John but the phone was obviously part of the mix. And if my if the videos that I take of my family and my dog and
⏹️ ▶️ John my outdoors and stuff uh, could look half as good as their setups here, I'll be happy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. So we got the Pro Controls and the camera app. Uh, sorry, third party camera folks.
⏹️ ▶️ John it's amazing that they've lasted this long, basically having such a simple camera app. I mean, I know there's lots
⏹️ ▶️ John of little gadgets and buttons and whatever, but like there's such a huge market for third-party camera apps that like,
⏹️ ▶️ John hey, you know, there are software controls for all the settings that you would want on a camera,
⏹️ ▶️ John and we can just expose them to you in an app. And there's lots of apps that do that. You know, obviously the the ones that
⏹️ ▶️ John stand head and shoulders above everybody else are popular and have their own technology to go with it. But finally, Apple said,
⏹️ ▶️ John all right, we can do that too. Like we can we can just put, we can just put the white balance control right in the, the, the
⏹️ ▶️ John camera interface. Every other app in the world does it. Now we can do it and we can let you adjust shutter
⏹️ ▶️ John speed. and like, It's like, yeah, and I feel bad for those camera apps. Like, oh man, we had this market sewn up
⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple just refused to do it with the built-in app. So basically our app, if our app's the one they find
⏹️ ▶️ John first, well, we have these controls and it's great. And now the bar has been raised substantially.
⏹️ ▶️ John Now it's not enough to just say, hey, I have a third-party camera app that lets you have some more controls because the built-in
⏹️ ▶️ John one has a pretty good interface to a lot of the basic controls that weren't there before. Yeah, and I believe they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco customizable, right? Did I hear that right? Yeah. oh
⏹️ ▶️ John Probably in the same way the current one is where you can kind of decide what you want to see and how many controls you want to see and which thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John We'll see how it ends up. Like it's obviously not going to really compete with the high-end third-party camera apps
⏹️ ▶️ John that have way more features than this, but they're finally taking a step in that direction saying
⏹️ ▶️ John we're not going to hold back and just give the simplest possible thing. And arguably they started down that direction when they introduced the
⏹️ ▶️ John camera control and all that stuff and setting aside how that physical control worked. They have been adding more stuff to the
⏹️ ▶️ John camera app and now they're continuing in that direction.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So we've got these pro controls. You can do white balance. They'll show a histogram. You can do the aforementioned manual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey aperture. You can do shutter speed. And all of this is also supported in video. One
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the cooler things that they did talk about that I noticed or that, well, that I thought was cool,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm not trying to imply I'm the only person that noticed this. I thought it was extremely cool that they made a specific mention
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that for video, and I'm not sure how you enable this, but for video, you can do focus tracking,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which which means like they, they showed the example of a kid's soccer game and the kid is running toward the camera. And generally
⏹️ ▶️ Casey speaking, in the past, it's been kind of hard to get the phone to stay focused on the kid Is there, or anything really
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as it's moving closer or further away from the camera. Um, But they said, not only will they do focus tracking,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so keeping the focus on this child as they're running closer and further away from the phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but also if they exit and then re-enter the frame, that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is super cool. And I'm really excited to try that out.
⏹️ ▶️ John Was this only video or was it also a photo? Because that's another feature that like, you know, my
⏹️ ▶️ John real Sony cameras, one of their big selling points is how well they can latch onto
⏹️ ▶️ John a thing you're trying to photograph and keep the focus on it. And same deal, like keeping the focus on the person, even if they
⏹️ ▶️ John turn their head around, if they turn their head back, it grabs their eye again. If they're running across the frame, it keeps
⏹️ ▶️ John track of them. Like same deal. And it's always amazed me that Apple has not jumped on that
⏹️ ▶️ John faster because the the socs in the in the iPhone are massively more powerful than the ones
⏹️ ▶️ John that are in these Sony cameras. And yet the Sony cameras are have a reputation for grabbing focus
⏹️ ▶️ John and not letting go and doing really well in these situations. So it's good to see Apple taking some of that. If it's just for video, it'll
⏹️ ▶️ John be kind of disappointing. I was kind of wish they would just bring all my Sony camera controls to the iPhone plain still
⏹️ ▶️ John image thing. Again, because the phone has just so much power, like I should have no problem just trouncing
⏹️ ▶️ John the Sony in this area. But so far, they haven't been very excited to do so. And part of it is like,
⏹️ ▶️ John OK, if you're taking pictures or video of your kid playing soccer from reasonable distances,
⏹️ ▶️ John because of what we just said before about, yeah, f1.4, blah, blah, blah. But practically speaking, it's not the same as f1.4
⏹️ ▶️ John on a full-frame camera because everything is tiny. What that means is all your apertures are tiny. So
⏹️ ▶️ John at the distance you're videoing your kid, everything in that field is in focus. Like it's a tiny
⏹️ ▶️ John hole, right? I mean, maybe it's like it just, I don't think there's like this, this shallow depth of
⏹️ ▶️ John field like, oh no, I was at f1.4 and only my kid's nose is in focus. And
⏹️ ▶️ John if it, and if it misses focus on him, then he's just a blur in the background. That's not a problem with phone
⏹️ ▶️ John video from normal viewing distances. So maybe that's why they waited so long to get these fancy
⏹️ ▶️ John focus controls because it's like, look, just point in the direction of the kids and hit record and it'll be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, unless I missed something, it also appears as though all of the other cameras
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the phone are unchanged from the 17 Pro. It seems like the front camera, like the new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco square sensor front camera that we got last year, that seems exactly the same. The 4X camera
⏹️ ▶️ Marco seems exactly the same. The ultra-wide, it seems like everything else is unchanged.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And most likely the sensor on the 48-megapixel one or on the 1X, the sensor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also seems like it was unchanged because they didn't mention anything about it. So it seems like the variable aperture
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is the the only change for the camera system this year. And then these other software controls, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again are useful. But this is this is a a medium camera
⏹️ ▶️ Marco upgrade year, and it's much more on the software side than the hardware side.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, the only even rumor there was about cameras other than the variable aperture one being better was that maybe the
⏹️ ▶️ John telephoto would go to 10x, but it doesn't. So that didn't happen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, there was there was this like last minute rumor drop,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all of which was wrong.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So there are new texture and grain controls in the photo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey styles thing. That's that like matrix where you can drag around the little cursory thing and try to lock
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in the exact photo style you want. So now you can do it with texture and grain control. They did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey make a bit of a stink about authenticity, and they said they're supporting the synth ID
⏹️ ▶️ Casey standard, which John has helpfully linked for me in the show notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John I think that's
⏹️ ▶️ John the right thing. I know that you had trouble hearing them, and I
⏹️ ▶️ John look at the subtitles, but I'm pretty sure this is what they were saying. It is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So this is something that Google's come up with that I think a fair number of people are starting to embrace.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They're talking, they spoke about Apple reference image, where the camera securely signs the photo data,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey excuse me, at pixel level at the time of capture. And then Private Cloud Compute creates a reference
⏹️ ▶️ Casey photo that lives peer to the edited photo so you can visually confirm what's actually in the shot. So I guess
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what happens is it will always, as far as I can tell anyway, the original photo will
⏹️ ▶️ Casey always be there and will ride along with whatever edits you make to the photo. I'm unclear about the mechanics
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John of it I mean, that's what
⏹️ ▶️ John happens now. Like that has always been Apple's photo system is your original remains unmodified and then
⏹️ ▶️ John all your edits are like effects on top of it. But what they're saying is not only are we going to continue to do
⏹️ ▶️ John that, but we're going to sort of sign the original so you can prove that this was captured by
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple's camera and it hasn't this this original capture hasn't been altered. Whereas with their other system, you
⏹️ ▶️ John can just replace that original behind the scenes with whatever you want. Say, look, this is what my iPhone took a picture of. It's like, well, was it
⏹️ ▶️ John signed by all the secret key? I don't know why they're sending it to Private Cloud Compute, but presumably there's some computationally
⏹️ ▶️ John expensive thing that they don't want to do on your phone that they'll do at their leisure on private cloud compute. But presumably there's
⏹️ ▶️ John some kind of hardware signing thing involving the secure enclave or whatever and the image processing and the sensor
⏹️ ▶️ John and blah, blah, blah that makes it so that you can't fake one of these things. If you have an image that is signed
⏹️ ▶️ John in this way, you can be sure that it was, these are the actual captured pixels
⏹️ ▶️ John from one of these Apple camera devices. That's the idea anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I'm very curious to learn over time, like, how does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this work? Why does Private Cloud Compute get involved? Is there some kind of like registry
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the keys or something? Like, what happens if one of the keys gets compromised?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, if a phone's key gets compromised?
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it's just because it's computationally expensive. I think that's why they always go to Private Cloud Compute.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's not like it's because they don't want to do it on your phone because it's too much.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Right. But like so if what they have set up here is basically a system that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco creates a pretty strong incentive for people to be able to prove something that wasn't really captured by a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sensor, what happens if one phone's key gets compromised somehow
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or there's some hack developed such that people can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make photos that aren't real get signed as if they were real? I don't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know. This could be very interesting in the age of AI and fake everything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it all works. But that's a big if.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, but that's that's the way we do with all encryption. Like, yeah, if someone gets some secret key or whatever, you can fake stuff, but like
⏹️ ▶️ John we have to make an effort in that direction, which is we'll
⏹️ ▶️ John best technology we have, which I mean, Apple's pretty good at this stuff so far. And like so far, none of their
⏹️ ▶️ John hardware keys have been leaked in such a way that it's compromised everything. But yeah, that's it's possible, but it's better than not doing it at all.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like the alternative is, OK, well, don't do it at all. And there's nothing, you know, trying to prove that this thing, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John so I know what you're saying. It's like, oh, you have the system and people start believing in it, then you can fake things more easily because people believe
⏹️ ▶️ John in it. But I think if it's cracked, we'll all know that it's cracked pretty quickly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All righty. So we got told that there's an upgraded dynamic island. It's a bit smaller.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They did not make much of a big deal of this, which I was a little surprised about. But now you can have up to three live activities.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And they specifically cited our friends over at Flighty, which I thought was neat. Then they did a kind of overview
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the new features of iOS 27, which they spoke about back in June. There's new cases.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There's an updated clear case. There's new colors for tech woven and for silicone. Uh, There's a new wrist strap
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for iPhone cases and for AirPods Pro. And the pricing. So it starts at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 1200 bucks for the 256 gig model, which is up a hundred dollars over the 17 Pro.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Also, the 16, 17, 17e, and Air are all now $100 more expensive.
⏹️ ▶️ John phones. They didn't change.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey yep uh then the Mac starts at $1,300. Both of these phones, you can get up to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey two terabytes of storage. Apple Upgrade, it starts at $35 a month for 24
⏹️ ▶️ Casey months. You get $1,200 off if you trade a 14 or newer.
The AppleCare One Family
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They introduced briefly Care One Family Apple Care One Family. So you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can have family members on the same plan. I think this would have solved a lot of your problems, right, John?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, I have a section on that. I didn't realize you had that up there, but I had a section on it lower. So here's the deal with Apple Care Family.
⏹️ ▶️ John So what they say on their apple.com/slash Apple Care page is they say cover up to three devices with Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John Care One Individual, which is the new name of what was previously just called Apple Care One. So now it's Apple Care One Individual.
⏹️ ▶️ John And then they say, or choose Apple Care One Family to cover every eligible device for
⏹️ ▶️ John up to six people. That's a great deal because it's not just like three, you know, the individual is three devices for one person.
⏹️ ▶️ John The family is every eligible device for six people. So it seems like if one
⏹️ ▶️ John person owns 50 devices, you're, you know, anyway. Obviously, you pay for each device you cover. But anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John after you sign up, easily add devices straight from your phone or Mac, including most devices less than four years old and in
⏹️ ▶️ John good working condition, blah, blah, blah. Here's the problem with this plan and the reason I'm still staying away from it. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John I said they should do a family plan, but the problem is cover every eligible device for up to six
⏹️ ▶️ John people. Well, how do they identify people? Because
⏹️ ▶️ John I have a lot of accounts with a lot of different Apple IDs and like for like dev testing stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever. And I'm going to run out of the six people. And I'm not going to add, first of all, I'm not going to add
⏹️ ▶️ John my dev testing device to my Apple family. I'm not even sure if you need to do that. But second of all, I've already got more than six.
⏹️ ▶️ John I've got four actual people plus a bunch of test dev accounts. And granted, they don't have any devices that
⏹️ ▶️ John need to be covered by AppleCare, But to remind everyone, what happened to me last time was if you have a Mac with multiple
⏹️ ▶️ John accounts, which I totally do, and you ever sign into an account that is not one of the accounts
⏹️ ▶️ John that is covered under Apple Care One, they just yank that device off of the thing. They Say, sorry, we saw a different Apple ID
⏹️ ▶️ John on that device. Now it's not covered anymore. I have had reports from listeners who said, hey, I've
⏹️ ▶️ John got Apple Care One. I log into a whole bunch of different accounts. It never bothers me. So maybe they changed this, but
⏹️ ▶️ John if they changed it, they didn't say anything about it. And when I looked at like the terms of service, like the PDF terms of service,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is weird, they have like a picker. You have to pick your state that you're in. Anyway,
⏹️ ▶️ John the language and their Apple Care One terms of service, it didn't look any different to me. It looked exactly the same as it was before, where they just
⏹️ ▶️ John say like, one person, one this, whatever. But the problem with me was always, uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John are you, you sign into a different Apple ID. Well, now that Mac belongs to a different person because you switched
⏹️ ▶️ John accounts. And that person is not part of your Apple Care One family because that's limited to six.
⏹️ ▶️ John And DevTester 22 is not part of that six. And so sorry. So yeah, I'm staying
⏹️ ▶️ John far away from this because my last experience with it was terrible. Apple, if someone in Apple knows that they have
⏹️ ▶️ John changed this policy or have fixed this bug, please tell me. But last time I pursued this all the way to the end, Apple said
⏹️ ▶️ John that's just the way Apple Care One works. No, we can't change it. If you don't like it, get off Apple Care One. So that's what I
⏹️ ▶️ John did. So, and again, like I said, I've had multiple people say this is no longer the case, but
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't trust it. So I'm staying away until I get official word from Apple that I can log into a different account on my Mac and they
⏹️ ▶️ John won't yank it off Apple Care One. If I do get that confirmation, I am very interested in this.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, I've skipped something earlier that I wanted to briefly talk about. iPhone handoff. This was in the iOS 27
⏹️ ▶️ Casey section. You can share a single phone number between two phones. This has been slightly rumored, slightly discovered
⏹️ ▶️ Casey earlier. It only supports T-Mobile, I think, anywhere right now, but they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said that Verizon and EE will be adding support by end of year, which could be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey interesting and useful for me in the future. We'll talk about it a little later. Anyways, so yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Care One Family, you can pre-order this Saturday and launch is September 18.
The AirPods 5
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right, so then they talked about the AirPods 5. I don't really have much to say about this, but the brief
⏹️ ▶️ Casey overview is that it's got all the AirPods 5 have active noise cancellation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is also 50% better than it was before. They claim it's the best ANC in any open-ear
⏹️ ▶️ Casey design. They talked about some other features it has that have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey been common for a while. They had a very cheesy demo of live translation, which was very funny, where somebody
⏹️ ▶️ Casey walked up to a woman saying like, oh, come to our show. It'll be fun or something like that. And she says, thank you.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It was very weird. Anyways, you get for $129, you get the,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this is the same price as the previous generation, but that generation didn't have active noise
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cancellation. So last time it was $130 bucks for no ANC.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Now it's $130 bucks with ANC. And then they eventually got backed
⏹️ ▶️ Casey around to announcing AirPods 5 with wireless charging case, which they wouldn't say the name of it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for a strangely long time. But this includes
⏹️ ▶️ Casey volume control, better battery life, and again, a wireless charging case. And here it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is the same price as before, 150 bones. That is, again, pre-ordered on
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Saturday. Both of these pre-order on Saturday out on the 18th. And they noted that this means active noise
⏹️ ▶️ Casey cancellation is now standard across the entire lineup. John, are you in for a pair?
⏹️ ▶️ John I already ordered a pair. I must have not been paying attention to the AirPods 5 rumors, or maybe the
⏹️ ▶️ John on-stem volume didn't leak, but that is the killer feature for me. Because remember, I don't use the pros. So you've been enjoying the little
⏹️ ▶️ John thing. And I haven't had it. And now I do. And so, like, I don't care about the ANC because in general, I don't use noise
⏹️ ▶️ John cancellation on these. And honestly, the noise cancellation on the AirPod 4, like they're open ear, they
⏹️ ▶️ John don't go in your ear hole. So it's never going to be great. They say that it's better. I'll try it. I'll see how much better it is, but
⏹️ ▶️ John it does really hurt your battery. But anyway, that's what I love about these AirPods 5 with wireless
⏹️ ▶️ John charging case is that they've
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco got the on-sem
⏹️ ▶️ John volume control and they supposedly have better battery. And those are all things I want. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John I said, I use the AirPods all the time. Every day goes by when I don't use these things.
⏹️ ▶️ John And so I'm replacing them with these 5. It's going to be a big upgrade for me. And as far as I can tell,
⏹️ ▶️ John they're the same shape, which I like because the current shape fits me. So I was very happy with this. It was the first
⏹️ ▶️ John thing that I ordered.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It's orderable today, not on Saturday. Then I misspoke a minute ago.
⏹️ ▶️ John you can do a pre-order or whatever. I don't i don't know i i i did it I did a double tap on the side button
⏹️ ▶️ John with Apple Pay, so something happened.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, my bad. Then I guess you can order today. and they'll Am I right to say they're out on the 18th or am I making that up?
⏹️ ▶️ John didn't look what the ship date
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Now, John, did you order the AirPods 5 or did you order what was first called
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John then eventually
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was renamed AirPods 5 with wireless charging case. Remember,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like last year, they did the same thing with the AirPods 4 or whatever that, maybe two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years ago, whatever it was, AirPods 4, and then they had like the AirPods 4 with active noise cancellation. It's like, this is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco two different products, and they just refuse to really name the second one. Just
⏹️ ▶️ Marco call it like AirPods 5 Plus. It's a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different product between the base AirPods and the Pro's. Just give it a real
⏹️ ▶️ Marco name because they have to keep dancing around it when they present it. I'm sure it causes lots of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco confusion when people try to buy it. What a weird thing they keep doing with just insisting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that this is just, it's the same product. Well, except for this version. This version of AirPods
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 5 with wireless charging case with different capabilities.
⏹️ ▶️ John Come on. It's physically different on the outside now. At least last time they were physically the same on the outside. But this
⏹️ ▶️ John on the outside, is the physical outside appearance is also different in addition to the insides being different. When when I bought
⏹️ ▶️ John this on the phone app, I was using the Apple Store phone app. um You have to tap on AirPods 5. You're
⏹️ ▶️ John like, but I don't want the 5. I want the 5 with whatever. like But you have to tap on 5. And then you have
⏹️ ▶️ John two choices within the 5 which is like, it's like the bin CPU and the unbinn CPU.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco It's like AirPods
⏹️ ▶️ John AirPods 5 with wireless charging case. And then it says in little bullet points, also it has a volume control.
⏹️ ▶️ John Also, it has better battery. you know like yeah anyway It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a different product. Just call it something else. AirPods 5, AirPods 5
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Plus, AirPods 5 Pro. Done.
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The Apple Watch Series 12
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Watch Series 12. They made a big stink about health and fitness
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in their new health sensing system. There's different physical sensors on the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey back of the Apple Watch. There's increased area for the electrodes, redesigned photodiodes,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey larger, more efficient, more power-efficient green LEDs. And this leads to accurate heart rate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey measuring all day long every five seconds, which is like a 60X increase or something like that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, this is huge. So this, I think, by introducing this new sensor
⏹️ ▶️ Marco array, and they talked a lot about, you know, they said that they did a new study where that showed that Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco now has the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable. Like between that and this kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of more continuous background heart rate monitoring, this is really going to compete,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it works, a lot better with like the Garmin's and the, you know, that kind of wearable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the world in a lot of those areas. I think this is great, especially like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the background heart rate being taken every five seconds instead of, I guess, every 15 minutes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or whatever that would be. That's a big difference. That's a really big difference.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco You know, and it samples HRV every five minutes, which is also like a huge increase
⏹️ ▶️ Marco from where it was before. This is much closer to continuous heart
⏹️ ▶️ Marco rate all day. Like that's basically what this is. Like that's very, very close to what this is. And that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if they choose to use the data this way, which that's a big if, but if they choose to use this data in
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this way, they could do things like it's basically always tracking a workout in some
⏹️ ▶️ Marco form. So like if you forget to start your workout or if you forget to stop your workout or if you forget to resume your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco workout after you've paused it for a while, they now will have more data that they can kind of patch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in to make up for that. They can probably also, if they choose to use
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, have better sensing for things like the workout detection things of like, did you, did you start a walk
⏹️ ▶️ Marco outside? Like maybe that feature can get better with this new data. There's all sorts of potential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for all of the heart monitoring and related features of the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch to get significantly better now that they're going to have way more frequent data
⏹️ ▶️ Marco when you're not in a workout. So that I think could be very, very promising for you know, general Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch usefulness over time. And um, to also have this new
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sensor that promises to be more accurate, that's very, very promising. I hope this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pans out the way it sounds like it could.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep, it sounds really, really good. They did this comparison where they led to the conclusion that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only we are the best and most accurate wearable. They did this by apparently comparing to an ECG chest strap
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as a reference, which, I mean, fair enough. They talked about all sorts of different health stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Honestly, I was paying attention, but it was so much, so fast that I think I need to have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some time with the redesigned health app, which is not coming until later this year. But one of the things they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said is they're going to do a readiness-like score from zero through 10, which is your body's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey capacity to take on the day. So basically, hey, we think you're exhausted. Maybe take it easy. Or, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you slept great. You should go run a marathon or whatever the case may be.
⏹️ ▶️ John This is such a great gamification of health, like literally gamification, like when you have
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey video game characters
⏹️ ▶️ John where you have abilities on cooldown. And it's like, oh, your meters are fully charged, right? Like, this is basically
⏹️ ▶️ John you're starting the day and it's like, you know, what was it? Like, good to go or like,
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco go for it. It's
⏹️ ▶️ John like all your meters are fully charged versus like, maybe take it easy.
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, and this, this goes great with the other gamification that they add, which is health age, which I
⏹️ ▶️ John know lots of apps and stuff have done this, but it's like, you know, what everyone wants to hear is like,
⏹️ ▶️ John you're 30 years old, but you have the heart of a 20-year-old. Like everyone wants to hear that. No one wants to hear,
⏹️ ▶️ John you're 30 years old, but you have the heart of a 65 year old uh And unfortunately, if this
⏹️ ▶️ John feature is accurate, both of those are possibilities. So everyone wants to hear that they're younger than they think they are, but I guess
⏹️ ▶️ John finding out that you have the heart of an 80-year-old when you're 40 is telling you something and maybe go to the doctor. But uh
⏹️ ▶️ John that's another one of those sort of like gamified stats of like, you know, what what are my character stats?
⏹️ ▶️ John How full are my meters? uh That's what these things are telling you in theory.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And this is also the readiness score and all this stuff. This is following a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco broader trends in the fitness wearable market. Like this is exactly the kind of thing that like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco whoop bands and aura rings and all these other wearables that have had some success recently.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This is the kind of thing they do. Their apps analyze their data and they tell you basically all of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco these same things. And that's a large part of why people like them. Like people buy these other wearables for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all sorts of other reasons, but these are all very popular features of them. So as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple, you know, we got the rumor a few shows ago that larger Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Watch rethinks are in the works and they're looking to maybe rethink some of the lineup and expand them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and go into new markets and stuff you know, over the next few years, but none of that was going to be ready
⏹️ ▶️ Marco yet in time for this. This kind of shows like they're taking a step towards that. I think they're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco realizing that they are honestly losing ground to a lot of these other wearables. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco As I said back then, um, you know, a few weeks ago when we talked about it, look around at how many like young
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people are wearing Apple Watches, and it seems like the number's going down. Like, It seems like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one's wearing an Apple Watch that I'm seeing like below age 25.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Young people are
⏹️ ▶️ John healthy or think they are anyway.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but but it does seem like I'm seeing a lot of whoop bands and aura rings
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I, I'm not seeing the Apple Watch seem to grow. Um, so yeah, they do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco need to move into these markets. And this, you know, the hardware probably is not ready yet for them to start doing that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I'm glad to see them like starting to take this competition seriously by doing a lot more of these software
⏹️ ▶️ Marco features and by working on the basics, things like the heart rate accuracy, like to, you know, to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco try to compete better with the rest of the market. So this is all kind of playing into that story,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think. So I'm glad to see it.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. So like I said, there's a lot of health stuff. And I tried
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so hard to keep up and I couldn't. So we're going to mostly skip over that. Uh, They talked about some new Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey intelligence stuff for the watch specifically, uh, and especially audio intelligence. This includes sound
⏹️ ▶️ Casey recognition, so your Apple Watch will know if there was like a doorbell in the background, for example. They
⏹️ ▶️ Casey also talked about live rewind, which lets you see a transcript of the last
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 15 seconds of conversation around you. You do this by double pressing the digital crown. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They had this as the way they demoed this is a waitress, or you know, a supposed waitress
⏹️ ▶️ Casey rattling off today's specials at a restaurant at just an astonishing pace, which,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of course, uh, but it was very contrived and very funny to me.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, you can just ask the server to repeat the specials just that for
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey you. That is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey something you could do.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And by the way, it's a 15-second cap. It's not going to fit. When's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the last time? Like, if you're at a restaurant and they're reading off some, you know, some lengthy specials, let's say,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's not going to fit in 15 seconds. I assure you. Like, it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey long. What do
⏹️ ▶️ Casey even know about restaurants?
⏹️ ▶️ John seconds is long for specials. But so here's the other thing. It's not a transcript either. It's a summary.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That's true. It is not. I did say transcript, and I think that might be inaccurate. I think you're right, John. It's actually a summary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, no, I think the 15-second one, I think that, I'll double-check the white paper. I think that one
⏹️ ▶️ Marco actually is a transcript, but it's the Siri recap feature, which we'll probably get to in a second.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's the summary.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes, yes, yes. That's what it is.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, either way, when they showed the little demo, remember, you're looking at this on a watch screen. So
⏹️ ▶️ John can you imagine scrolling through 15 seconds of speech on a watch screen and trying to get something out of it? It's not ideal.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not. And then, as Marco just brought up, there's Siri recap, which is basically in the same
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way that the heart rate stuff was like a screw you to the whoop band, Siri recap is a screw you to like the little pendants
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that everyone seems to think are very cool. So what this is, it's high-level notes of your conversations.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You review them in the Siri app. You can enable it always or on a schedule. You can turn it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on or off via control center. The audio is not recorded or stored, I think.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The audio cannot be accessed by anyone, including Apple. The speakers are not identified. And I didn't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey personally get a chance to read this. It sounds like, Marco, you at least got a chance to skim
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco it. I did, I read
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it. okay, there you go. So there's a white paper that talks about the privacy implications of all this. Since Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you read it, can you give us any notes from that? Or is it not really that interesting?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco All right. So everyone is reacting to this, and I think it is warranted.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the way this works, the way Apple has designed it, is audio is recorded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the watch in a special area of the SOC that is isolated from the rest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the operating system and the rest of the SOC doesn't have access to the audio data. It is signed.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is encrypted and signed. It is then sent off the watch to your iPhone over
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Bluetooth. The iPhone SOCs from iPhone 16 Pro forward,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the iPhone SOCs also have one of those similar exclaves that isolates
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the audio, can decrypt the one with a key pair thing from the phone, from the watch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so basically, so the watch records audio but can't read it, sends it to the phone. The phone reads the audio
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and transcribes it on the phone, because I guess they don't want to burn the watch's battery running the transcription model on the watch.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the phone obviously can have the better models anyway. So then the phone summarizes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it using local Apple intelligence to cut it down to about half of its length
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and try to enforce some kind of guardrails on whether this is a transcript of a conversation we want to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep or record at all. Then it sends it to Private Cloud Compute, which does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco an even more involved summarization and safety guardrail check. And it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sends it to Private Cloud Compute along with a bunch of context data, the same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way they send Siri AI requests. So, you know, your personal context about things like where
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you are, what's going on around you, that kind of stuff. It sends all that to Private Cloud Compute.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And then that generates basically an even denser and more filtered summary
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what is being said around you. And then those are kept for seven days and everything is local
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and end-to-end encrypted, similar to other iCloud you know, sensitive data like your keychain and your health data and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that. So that's how this works. And they're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco saying they are filtering out things like personal identifiers and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that kind of sensitive information. But that is all a lot of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco guardrails and a lot of safeties and a lot of technical hoops jumping through to protect your privacy for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco something that is fundamentally an invasion of privacy. There are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lots of ways that you could see this going wrong. Now, they're very careful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to say that the audio is not accessible to anything, anywhere, anybody, anytime.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the topics of what you talked about are. And there's lots of situations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can imagine where that is, first of all, pretty sensitive.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Second of all, possibly dangerous to the people in the conversation. Uh, Third
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all, possibly um, violating people's trust around you by them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not realizing that you have a device on your wrist that is taking notes on your criminal effing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco conspiracy. Um, There's a lot of potential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco problems with this. And honestly, I don't know why Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is inviting the flames onto themselves for this. Like, why would they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco want to turn the Apple watch into something that everyone is going to be as suspicious
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about as the meta Ray-Ban glasses? That's what they're doing with this feature. And I,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and they're, you know, rumored to be doing the same thing with the AirPods, with the cameras. And I think this model
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what we're seeing here is actually probably a pretty good indicator of what the AirPods Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with cameras are going to do themselves, which is they're probably going to do the same thing, not only with audio, but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco also with video, of like they're taking video, probably. They're probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not going to make those recordings of the video available to anything, but they will probably analyze the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco content of what's going on around you and take notes and allow you to review those notes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That's my guess. But anyway, going back to the Apple Watch, think about the kind of the kinds of things they can record
⏹️ ▶️ Marco here. Sensitive personal conversations, sensitive work conversations,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco things that are risky. Things like, for instance, like coordinating, scheduling, and discussing an
⏹️ ▶️ Marco abortion. There's a lot of states where that is not a safe thing to be on a record somewhere.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What about if you are queer and you live somewhere where that is illegal or very
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dangerous and you have any record of that whatsoever? There's a lot of situations
⏹️ ▶️ Marco where Apple is considering that, well, this is all secure and no one's ever going to get to it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What if your spouse knows your passcode? That's pretty common. What if someone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco else is looking at your phone and you don't necessarily know that they're looking at
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your phone? There's a lot of untrusting relationships out there or a lot of things that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you think are no big deal and it's no big deal for someone to have access to this, but then they they get access
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to it or they see something that maybe you didn't think they would see or maybe you didn't even know they could
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. This just seems like it's an incredibly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco dangerous foot gun to use AI to speak, which I know AI didn't invent the term
⏹️ ▶️ Marco foot gun, but it uses it a lot, which is fun. But I don't know why they're taking this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on. I don't think the value is just so massive that it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worth the possible reputational damage and heat of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. In the same way, I said similar things when they launched the AirTag, because the AirTag also kind of seemed
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like, well, this is a really big risk of like privacy, reputational problems, and stuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like that for for a pretty small product, honestly. And I think this is this is the next level of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that. This is Apple putting a feature into every Series
⏹️ ▶️ Marco 12 and Ultra 4 Apple watch that I think is going to really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco make people hate them. It's going to invite problems. It's going to be used in criminal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco cases. It's going to be used for persecution. It's going to be used for domestic surveillance and spying on people.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It's going to be used for harm. Now, it's also going to be used for good. And you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can think of lots of like useful things about this. But does that overcome
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the harm of even even with what they've done of like it is privately
⏹️ ▶️ Marco recorded and the audio is never sent anywhere or readable by anything and you're only seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco transcripts and summaries of transcripts, high-level topical summaries, but like, but even a high-level
⏹️ ▶️ Marco topical summary could contain sensitive information. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do think it is a violation of trust of the people around you to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use something like this. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I do not see this ending well for them.
⏹️ ▶️ John Do they talk about the activation situation with this? Is this a thing that you have
⏹️ ▶️ John to opt into? Is it on all the time? Do you have to activate it and turn it on? If you do turn it on, how long does it stay
⏹️ ▶️ John on? Do they cover any of that?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, so there's a switch in control center on the watch, just like a regular icon in control center. You can turn
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it on and off whenever you want, and you can have it gated to certain areas. You can say only have it on when
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm at work is the example they use. So it seems like it has some kind of geofence capability where you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco use it here or don't use it here, but you know what's going to happen. People are going to leave it on. Like that's, That's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what's going to happen. And even, even if they don't, even if you say, fine, just use it at work, how does your employer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco feel about that? How do all of your coworkers feel about that? Like there's, There's just a lot of potential
⏹️ ▶️ Marco giant red flags on this that just make me wonder why they put this in here.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I think it's because this is the trendy AI thing to do. This is perhaps because Silicon
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Valley is its own little bubble that doesn't really understand reality a lot of the time. Um, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's because this is a very much keeping up with the Joneses sort of feature. I don't disagree in any particular
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way with any particular thing you just said, but I think that Apple feels like this is table stakes. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco My guess is this is a shot at open AI because like, yeah, there's a bunch of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like dumb little startups trying to make stuff like this. No one's buying them. It isn't like Apple is catching up with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rest of the world here because the rest of the world largely has said we don't care about these kinds of products, Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco but which is why not everyone's wearing them all the time. Um, So I could see like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if, if there was some like, you know, AI necklace that was taking off that everybody was buying and using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in their work meetings, I could totally see Apple saying, okay, we're going to we're going to do that for the Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and neutralize that market. But that market doesn't exist. It's, It's not there. People keep saying it's going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to be there, like the next big thing, like you know, the metaverse, and it's not there. Like, no, Nobody
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wants it. Uh, So Apple kind of walked in here as if that market was already there. So that's why
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think maybe OpenAI was going in this direction with one of their products. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so Apple, as we know, is pretty annoyed at OpenAI's hardware efforts. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco maybe that influenced this and possibly blinded
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to some of the realities of what this means and what this might mean for them. I hope that's not the answer.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope they had a better reason than that. But at this moment, I'm not really seeing it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Maybe they're thinking of it as an accessibility thing or whatever, but it definitely wasn't pitched that way. You know, a more apply way
⏹️ ▶️ John to do this, and obviously that's not what they chose to do, but a more apply way to do this with the pieces
⏹️ ▶️ John they have is make it iPhone only and require the proximity sensor
⏹️ ▶️ John on the front of the iPhone to not be sensing anything in front of it. Right. So
⏹️ ▶️ John then basically you're requiring the screen to be like unobstructed and then put some kind of graphic on the screen
⏹️ ▶️ John that's like a giant red siren rotating. So
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco that basically
⏹️ ▶️ John it becomes much, much harder to surreptitiously record anybody because if you can't have your phone in your pocket,
⏹️ ▶️ John you can't have your phone face down on the table. You have to have it somewhere where there's like a clear shot from the screen
⏹️ ▶️ John out into the world. And you could still use it that way, but like that would be acknowledging the main problem with this, which as you said is Mark,
⏹️ ▶️ John was like, do people know? Like people are going to look at you and say, oh, you have an Apple Watch. Are you recording me? Which
⏹️ ▶️ John is exactly the meta Ray-Ban problem. Oh, it's got a line on it. You'll always know, blah, blah, blah. Oh, yeah, really?
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, If it's, if it can be hidden at all, it's like you don't notice someone's watch. You don't think their watch is recording you. And
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe an AI pen would be more obvious, but you know what's more obvious than a watch? A phone screen up on
⏹️ ▶️ John the table with a graphic on it that's going with a giant ear going, we're listening, we're listening. Because
⏹️ ▶️ John these products are useful in like work contexts and stuff like that. But the problem is, okay, but what about
⏹️ ▶️ John the whole rest of the context? And geofencing is not going to cut it. And like, you don't want to be suspicious
⏹️ ▶️ John of these things in other contexts. And if it's just a built-in feature of the watch, that makes
⏹️ ▶️ John every watch suspect. Whereas if it's something that people just use at work in a very obvious way,
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, maybe the phone proximity sensor is not a great idea, but like something like that, you know, where the egg or the donut
⏹️ ▶️ John has a flashing light on it that can't be disabled or something, and the egg or the donut is harder to hide.
⏹️ ▶️ John I don't know. It's difficult, but like, I feel like we're still in the early stages of adapting
⏹️ ▶️ John society to these technologies, kind of in the same way when like photography first became a thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John We had to establish societal norms and eventually laws about when it is and isn't okay
⏹️ ▶️ John to take a photograph of strangers. I'm not saying we have the perfect situation for that, but it took a
⏹️ ▶️ John long time from the advent of photography to the current situation now where we don't view cameras as this
⏹️ ▶️ John giant invasion of privacy because we have, again, laws and social norms about when it is and isn't
⏹️ ▶️ John appropriate to use them. And you can still be creepy with a camera and blah, blah, blah. But nobody knows any of that stuff for this stuff. Forget
⏹️ ▶️ John about laws. We don't have any laws about anything because we can't pass laws anymore in this country. Correct. But for like
⏹️ ▶️ John societal norms, this technology is all too new. We have no idea. Like, I mean, the norm
⏹️ ▶️ John of the meta Ray-Bans is don't do it because you look like a creep. But what's the social norm once the Apple Watches can do it?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, We'll figure this out. But I agree with you, Marco. This is probably not the final form and it's probably
⏹️ ▶️ John a bad idea. And why are they doing it? Yeah, I think it's like it's competitive pressure and open AI.
⏹️ ▶️ John And it's like, well, we can do it and everyone else is doing it. So we should try to do it too. And probably
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And then if you think about like, think about all the contexts now that like in,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, six months from now, all the different types of workplaces and societal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco places and situations where they're no longer going to allow people to wear Apple watches. And now think about the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same thing happening to AirPods within a year. Like that's why I think these features are dangerous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to the product in lots of ways, but also in the sense of like you're giving
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more workplaces and venues and things. You're giving more places reasons to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ban people from wearing these devices and using these devices there. And that is not good for the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco products. You know, if you're wearing an Apple Watch for health monitoring or for the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco many, many different utilities that it offers, you don't want to have to take it off when you go to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work because now your workplace has a policy that nobody can wear Apple Watches because they're recording everybody all the time. Same
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thing, like if they're pushing the AirPods as health aids, like the hearing aid
⏹️ ▶️ Marco features of AirPods are amazing. The hearing protection, like this is all the last thing Apple should be pushing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for is any reason to make it societally unacceptable to wear AirPods.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But yet, if they launch the camera AirPods, they're going to do exactly that. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco again, this is that same thing for the Apple Watch. I worry about that for these products because these are products that have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco amazing value the more you wear them and in the more places you wear them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the last thing Apple should be doing is giving businesses and things reasons to ban
⏹️ ▶️ John I think they could do the Air… I don't know what they're going to do with the AirPods one, but I think they could do the AirPods line in a way better way because,
⏹️ ▶️ John first of all, don't have it be a camera, have it be like an IR sprayer or something. So there's never any visual data or whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ John And second of all, have the only function of it be what's in front of you right now. I will speak a summary
⏹️ ▶️ John of it to you. Like, what kind of bird is that? What kind of car just went by? Who am I talking to? So
⏹️ ▶️ John there's never any permanent record of anything. There's no quote unquote recording of anything. It is entirely
⏹️ ▶️ John some kind of sensor sees what's in front of me. AI, blah, blah, blah, real time,
⏹️ ▶️ John speaks into my ears, and that's it. No data retention whatsoever. I think that would be privacy preserving. It would
⏹️ ▶️ John be good for accessibility and it would let people identify birds and remember people names.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, when you hear the stories of how much blind people
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can benefit from the meta-ray-bands, because it's a way for something with AI sensibilities
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to look at the world around them, tell them what's around them, and keep their hands free because their hands are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco probably busy with a dog, a cane, object, something else. Like, that's why it's so game-changing for blind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco people with the ray bands. The AirPods with the cameras would have, presumably, similar
⏹️ ▶️ Marco value and probably even more value because they would probably have way longer
⏹️ ▶️ Marco battery life. They would cost less money.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they wouldn't be sending your video to a data center in some country where someone can look at it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yes, exactly. So that's possibly very helpful. But again, like if there's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any creepy features that are there, they're going to get a stigma associated
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with them and it's going to harm all those use cases. So Apple has to be very careful
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with the features they develop around this. And this Apple Watch feature suggests to me that they're not being careful enough.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. We got to hurry this along. So there's a new SOC. There's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey some new colors, space gray, black, light gold, and dark bronze. The aluminum has ceramic shield 2,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which you knew from the iPhone 17 Pro. There's two new polished
⏹️ ▶️ Casey titanium finishes, radiant gold and natural, which is 100% recycled titanium.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It's one new finish. The gold is lighter gold. The natural is the same.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. There's also ceramic in pearl white and night blue. This all starts for an aluminum
⏹️ ▶️ Casey GPS model at 400 bones. You can pre-order today, available on the 18th of September. The Lisps family
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is in for, so far, one of the uh, Apple watch, uh, aluminum,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh, the 44 or whatever, 46 millimeter aluminum for me to replace my Series 10. I thought about
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going Ultra, but I just don't think I need it. I just don't think it's necessary for me. So I'm in for one. Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Once I get a chance to get Erin in front of the Apple Store, you know, like app or whatever, we're going to order
⏹️ ▶️ Casey one for her. What did you guys buy, if anything?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm getting no pro iPhone this year for the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first time ever. oh I'm just talking watches. Slow down, kid. I'm just talking watches. We passed the phones already. You didn't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ask. Well, but there's one more phone to go.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There's one more thing, Marco.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn't say anything about that. There's actually one more thing. But for the watches,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I didn't buy a watch last year, so I'm rocking a Series 10. I am going to upgrade to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Series 12 because I want that ceramic. They, I had the ceramic back forever ago.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I believe it was the Series five was the last ceramic one they did. Back then, it was an addition that cost $1,200.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Um, So for now, it only being $900 is actually a reasonable
⏹️ ▶️ Marco price for what it is. It's about, it's like, I think it's slightly more than the titanium's or the same price of titanium.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that's honestly great news to me. The thing to know about ceramic,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I, it looks this way on the new ones too, Uh, the, the bezel around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the screen, there's like a slight gap between the screen crystal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and where the ceramic starts, like the curvature of it, like it juts out slightly. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the crystal mound on top is slightly smaller
⏹️ ▶️ Marco than the ceramic base it's sitting on. So if you care about that kind of detail, like when I had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the Series 5, I noticed that and I didn't like it. And this one looks like it has the exact
⏹️ ▶️ Marco same design. The ceramic is also very slightly larger in footprint, probably for that reason.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And the ceramic is heavier than titanium. So it's something to know. The other thing with ceramic
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is that it will make it so that any watch band you have that has the shiny
⏹️ ▶️ Marco polished metal lugs will look wrong. So it does
⏹️ ▶️ Marco restrict your band choice somewhat in that there is no matching metal
⏹️ ▶️ Marco finish for the ceramic. One other thing to know, for some reason, the dark blue ceramic is
⏹️ ▶️ Marco heavier than the white ceramic. I don't know why. What? Yeah, it's not by a lot. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like one gram or a gram and a half. But for some reason, the blue is heavier. And the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco white, I'm not entirely sure is white. Like, I was watching all the YouTube
⏹️ ▶️ John hands-on area trying to figure out. like eggshell.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, like they're calling it… The band they sell that matches it is called Sand. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's definitely some kind of off-white. But the question is, how far off,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I guess? So that also could make it a little bit more difficult to match with straps.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So we'll see how that goes. But I'm looking forward to it for, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco more for novelty sake. Like, the regular series Apple Watch has looked
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so similar for so long. I'm ready for some novelty in its design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And I've enjoyed wearing an Ultra for most of the summer, in part because of the novelty of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the design, and in part because I like the big screen. I'm hoping the white ceramic will kind of tide us over design-wise
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the regular series, so it doesn't seem so boring and so played out until we get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco some kind of different hardware redesign, which is, again, rumored for next year. The other thing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'll say is on the Ultra 4. We're not there yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey Oh, sorry. We'll get there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey honest, there's almost nothing to say, so carry on.
⏹️ ▶️ John Although, Marco, I will say, are you going to order your ceramic watch without seeing it? Are you going to wait
⏹️ ▶️ John till you see it in person to pick which one you want?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just ordered it because in the videos, it looks pretty bright white. Oh, you got the white
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I got the white one. And I went back to the smaller one. So for the last few
⏹️ ▶️ Marco months, I've kind of gone between the small one, the big one, and the ultra
⏹️ ▶️ Marco at different times. I'll spend like a few weeks with each one, mostly testing out UIs and stuff, but then, you know, also
⏹️ ▶️ Marco kind of seeing how it fits in my life. I would wear the ultra year-round
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if it didn't suck so badly when you have a long sleeve over it or a jacket cuff. Like anything with like a cuff
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sleeve or a jacket, the way it goes over that ultra, just it's so clumsy,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like getting it over that thick, bulky, sharp-edged watch. But all summer, I love the ultra because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don't have a jacket or a long sleeve here. So that's great. But in the winter, I like something that's sleeker and goes under a sleeve
⏹️ ▶️ Marco better. So for me, that's the regular one. And I like the small one. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just so light and like unobtrusive on my wrist. It feels like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm waving my arms around ridiculously right now. It just feels like I can wave my arms and they're all lightweight
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and I'm free, free as a bird. So I like that. So we'll see how that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco goes. The Ultra, let's cover that now. Ultra 4, longer battery life.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Seems the same otherwise. you know, The new SOC. So it has the new software features and the new sensors on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco back. Longer battery life for some reason, which seems probably mostly related to the SOC.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And they ruined some of the band colors. That's about it. So all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the watch bands this year, the Ultra,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think the best band for the Ultra is the Ocean Band. It's that silicone band with the bumps and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the ridged loops. And you can pick any slot and stick it in and kind of buckle
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it down. And they made, for some reason, they turned these wonderfully colored ocean bands previously
⏹️ ▶️ Marco into this like translucent garbage color. And it's three different garbage colors
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that are all translucent. They look terrible in the pictures. I'm hoping they look better.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey didn't notice that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I hope they look better in real life. It looks horrendous. So I think they might have temporarily
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ruined the ocean band, But that would be a shame because it is the best ultra band. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the rest of the lineup, everything is very earth-toned, which is very in right now. This is what I was talking about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco earlier. Browns, beiges, this is all very, very in,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which honestly, I'm not a fan of this trend. It's very hard for me to buy nice shirts this year as
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a result because everything is different colors of beige and brown, which do not look good on me and are impossible to match
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to each other or anything else. But that's what's in fashion. So that's what the Apple Watch is. The Apple Watch is trying to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco keep up with fashion. Lots of browns, lots of earth tones, lots of soft
⏹️ ▶️ Marco grays and you know beiges and stuff like that. So that's why they're doing all these colors the way they
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are. uh We'll see how these look in practice. And you know it's going to be it's going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco look very much of this year. And then next year we'll have different colors and we'll we'll get it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco roll the Roll the dice again.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPhone, or excuse me, Apple Watch Ultra 4, uh 800 bones. You can pre-order today,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey available the 18th of September.
⏹️ ▶️ John Let me circle back to the Series 12 watch for a second. I don't wear an Apple Watch, so this is not particularly relevant
⏹️ ▶️ John to me. But I will say that my expectations were so low for what the Series 12 watch would be.
⏹️ ▶️ John And, you know, physically speaking, it is what you thought. It just looks like every other watch. And I knew there would be a new SOC, but I
⏹️ ▶️ John have to say, when they got done with that Series 12 presentation, I'm like, this is the best Series
⏹️ ▶️ John X, whatever, Apple Watch they've introduced in years. Because first of all, they did actually change
⏹️ ▶️ John the hardware with the new SOC. And it has, you know, fancy features and more neural engines and stuff like that. Like, finally, uh
⏹️ ▶️ John it has that whole like the back sensor thing. That's not a small thing. Like, that's the whole watch
⏹️ ▶️ John is basically a screen, an SOC, a battery, and that thing on the back. And they 100% changed the thing on
⏹️ ▶️ John the back in large ways that make it better. And so I feel like this is kind of like a what we used
⏹️ ▶️ John to think of, like an S generation phone. Oh, it looks the same on the outside, but everything about it is better. And then
⏹️ ▶️ John all the software features, setting aside the privacy invasion stuff, the other software features they had, I
⏹️ ▶️ John just think this is the best, the biggest leap over the Series N minus one phone that they've
⏹️ ▶️ John had in years. And again, I don't even, I don't even care about the phone or the watch. I think I said phone. I don't
⏹️ ▶️ John even care about the watch. I don't wear the watch, but I think this is a great one. So if you are waiting for like, when
⏹️ ▶️ John is the right time to buy an Apple Watch? If you have any interest in them, I think the Series 12 is a really
⏹️ ▶️ John good time, especially if you like the current design, because someday, in theory, they will change the design. But that time is
⏹️ ▶️ John not this year. And this seems like a really, really good Apple Watch series, whatever
⏹️ ▶️ John watch, both in hardware and software. And I think in the choices that you have of finishes, setting aside the
⏹️ ▶️ John earth tone bands, I do like the polished titanium versus like the matte ones. I think ceramic
⏹️ ▶️ John is cool. Uh, I was very impressed. This is like, it's the most improved or
⏹️ ▶️ John exceeded expectations thing in this
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey keynote for me is
⏹️ ▶️ John the Apple Watch Series 12.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, it looks like a nice all-around update. It depends a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on how good those new sensors are. If they are as good as they sound, if they really
⏹️ ▶️ Marco do provide like nearly continuous heart rate monitoring all day and the heart rate monitoring is more accurate
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and better HRV and all those readiness features.
⏹️ ▶️ John And all the software features that tie into it to give you the little scores and the gamification that build off the new stuff.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just think it's a great total package.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. One other little thing I noticed when I was doing the spec comparisons, the previous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Watch Series 11 is listed as having GPS. The Apple Watch
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Ultra has precision dual frequency GPS, which is L1 and L5, as I discussed back with my
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Suunto and Garmin segments. The Apple Watch Series 12 now says
⏹️ ▶️ Marco precision L1 GPS, which is possibly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the same thing as the old one. Because the dual frequencies are L1 and L5.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco The Series 11 had L1. Series 12 now says precision L1.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco What does that mean? Is it actually different? I don't know, but it still isn't dual
⏹️ ▶️ Marco frequency, which honestly does surprise me because every modern iPhone, every modern Android
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone, every Apple Watch Ultra, and every Suunto and Garmin watch above a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco certain level, they all have dual frequency GPS these days. And the regular
⏹️ ▶️ Marco series Apple Watch for it still not to have that is a little weird to me and a little
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unfortunate. But anyway, that's hopefully a minor thing. And yes, I agree
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with John that this does look like potentially a very strong update if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco those sensors are as good as Apple says they are.
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The iPhone Duo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so that's the entire press. Oh, wait, one more thing.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the way, first of all, what a move for John Turnus to have to use one more thing in his
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first keynote. But he kind of soft-played it. He said, but actually, there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is one more thing. Which is like, the but actually, I think, really softens
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. Like, maybe this is you know, Ternus' style. We'll see. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it was a little, I thought it was like a little bit fumbled in that way.
⏹️ ▶️ John The whole one more thing phenomenon is totally undercut by
⏹️ ▶️ John the amount that phone stuff leaks. The ideal one more thing is, I
⏹️ ▶️ John didn't even know Apple was working on anything like this. Obviously, that will probably never happen again, except for maybe with the Mac Pro
⏹️ ▶️ John that no one cares about to leak. But yeah hell, even that will probably leak. But like, this thing, we knew
⏹️ ▶️ John every millimeter of this device before it was released. So it's not like anyone was shocked. Like, is the presentation
⏹️ ▶️ John over? No, we know it's not over.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Well, to be fair, we knew everything about the hardware. We really didn't know anything
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about the software.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, like, it's not like the one more thing is like, what do you mean you made an X?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John Just say it,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? Anyway, it is kind of silly in the age where everything in this thing leaks. But yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John so the software stuff was all, you know, it's harder to leak. Although sometimes that stuff leaks too, but this time, a lot of it was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Right. So we get the iPhone duo. He
⏹️ ▶️ Casey turns it a lead in with a bunch of different quotes about it, none of which were actually that exciting.
⏹️ ▶️ John I will say that all of our predictions of her being Ultra because Ultra was a stupid name and Apple likes to do stupid
⏹️ ▶️ John names. Apple's like, oh, we always do stupid names. Let's do a sensible one. What do you think of
⏹️ ▶️ John that? And they did. It's a sensible That's the reason, one of the main reasons I thought they would never
⏹️ ▶️ John do it is because it made too much sense. And also the Surface Duo. Everyone's like, oh, Microsoft Surface
⏹️ ▶️ John Duo, it's fine. iPhone Duo and Surface Duo, I feel like, are not going to be in conflict.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco no one knows what that
⏹️ ▶️ John is. The precedent here is obviously the Powerbook Duo. Either one of you ever seen this device in person?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Doesn't Steven have one, I believe, that I think I've seen, if I'm not mistaken.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, so when I worked in, I don't know what the heck I was, computer lab attendant
⏹️ ▶️ John in college. There was someone, that was a professor who had a computer lab, and I took care of the computers there.
⏹️ ▶️ John Doing retrospect backups to tape from the various Macs. They had a NextCube that Richard
⏹️ ▶️ John Greenblatt would use sometimes. And the professor had a PowerBook Duo, which
⏹️ ▶️ John was an incredibly thin, incredibly light laptop from the 90s.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think it was like four pounds in the 90s.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco Like this is
⏹️ ▶️ John unprecedented. And it was so small and thin because it had nothing in it. There was no floppy drive. Can
⏹️ ▶️ John you imagine a laptop with no floppy drive? No optical drive. It was just a screen and a trackball,
⏹️ ▶️ John not a trackpad, and a not even full-size keyboard. But it was incredibly thin, okay? But it
⏹️ ▶️ John was useless because it's only good for portable stuff on the go. So it had
⏹️ ▶️ John a thing called the Duo Dock, which was like a little garage that you shove it into. It goes
⏹️ ▶️ John into a little slot. And when you slot it into that thing, sitting on top of it would be your
⏹️ ▶️ John big CRT monitor. And when you shoved it in there, that box would have a floppy drive,
⏹️ ▶️ John potentially another hard drive inside there, networking and all the peripheral connections
⏹️ ▶️ John that you didn't have on the tiny laptop. I think the box also had an FPU in it, a floating point processing
⏹️ ▶️ John unit. So the floating point unit was in the dock and not, and you're like, how can it use the floating point
⏹️ ▶️ John unit? It's not even, it's like things were slower back then. You could do it. Um, And so the idea was you're an
⏹️ ▶️ John important professor on the go. You've got the thinnest laptop anyone has ever seen. It's like a status symbol, but
⏹️ ▶️ John you've also got a full powered computer when you get back to your desk because you slide it into that. Needless to say, this trend
⏹️ ▶️ John did not catch on, but boy, was this amazing technology at the time. Totally weird. And I think
⏹️ ▶️ John it is ample precedent for Apple resurrecting the duo name. Not quite the
⏹️ ▶️ John same thing, two screens versus a computer that is both a laptop and a not laptop at the same time.
⏹️ ▶️ John But I give this name a big thumbs up. It makes perfect sense. That has none of the awkwardness of Ultra. We're
⏹️ ▶️ John not arguing about, but his cameras aren't as good as the other ones. How is this the Ultra? It saves the Ultra potentially
⏹️ ▶️ John for the all glass 20th anniversary phone. I don't know what's going on. Maybe jobs was out that day and they
⏹️ ▶️ John said, he's out sick. We're just going to call the Duo. Don't tell him until lunch. Uh, But yeah, iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John Duo. I approve of the name, even though I just, because this name had been out there forever, but nobody was picking
⏹️ ▶️ John it. Everyone was like, yeah, duo. They're not going to do fold because of Samsung, probably. It's probably just going to be Ultra
⏹️ ▶️ John because Apple's stupid with names. And Apple came out of nowhere and did a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco By the way, the Powerbook Duo was the first desktop laptop. So I think that was,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John I'm literally
⏹️ ▶️ John quite in the same way you think of it, though. Literally, it goes inside the desktop.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, It was cool. It had like an eject, like had an, like a motorized inject mechanism. Like it would go
⏹️ ▶️ John and like, you know, you know, cause you'd shove it in, but you didn't have to like shut like a, it was like soft closed doors kind of. It was
⏹️ ▶️ John really cool. Also horrendously expensive. If you want to look at the prices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and translate from like 1990, whatever money, just it's terrifying. Uh, $6,200
⏹️ ▶️ John Woof. There you go. Is that just for the laptop or for the Docker
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It was listed as a $2,610. For
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John just the laptop?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, weren't they sold together?
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, John don't
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann, Marco think so.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Okay, forgive me. I'll need more time.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also, don't forget the CRT is on top of it. And the keyboard and mouse. keyboards, 200 bucks in 1990s money. All right, I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John not doing all this. It was expensive.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Suffice to say, a lot of money. All right. So Molly and Steve talk about the design. Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The physical design is roughly what everyone expected. It's two cameras. It
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Okay, down to the millimeter, what everyone expected. Um, But the software design took me by
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Uh, There is a right mount dock, both opened and closed. There's a right
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mount toolbar. Uh, The status indicators for Wi-Fi and cellular
⏹️ ▶️ Casey are now a circle where in the inside shows you the wifi like fan looking thing and the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey bottom of the circle shows the commensurate number of dots to indicate your cellular connection. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There's all sorts of oddities with regard to software. We're going to come back to it in a little bit. But clearly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they did the Apple thing, which I mean complimentary in a complimentary way in this case, of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey really asking themselves, do we need things to be the way they are?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do we need the dock to be on the bottom? What if we put it somewhere else? Do we need to have a separate Wi-Fi
⏹️ ▶️ Casey indicator and cellular indicator? Can we combine them? A lot of this is very,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very different. And no matter how hard we try to paint you a word picture, I think it's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey best served for you to take a look at least at this portion of the video or somebody's recap
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on like YouTube or TikTok or what have you and see the way the software is on this phone because
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it is startlingly different than just, hey, let's put iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on a phone with two screens. It's way different than that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And this is all in service of, as they began this part of the presentation, all of this software stuff that we're going to talk about
⏹️ ▶️ John even more is in service of making an interface on a phone
⏹️ ▶️ John that is shaped the way this is. And so that's why they started with, why did we make it this
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of squat way? Why don't we do what other people do where they take two regular looking phones and connect them side
⏹️ ▶️ John to side and put a hinge on it? And they explained. They said, we don't do that because that's kind of a waste of space
⏹️ ▶️ John because the things people might want to do with a big screen, if you want to watch like letterbox, uh you know, video from
⏹️ ▶️ John a television show or movie, it's a massive waste of space. It sometimes can be not much bigger than a phone
⏹️ ▶️ John turned sideways. So what are you using all the other space for? And like, it just, it just doesn't work out size-wise to
⏹️ ▶️ John be, you know, you don't get all the benefits. So like, we started from, we want it to be this
⏹️ ▶️ John aspect ratio when it's open because then you can use it in portrait and in landscape. And in both of those modes,
⏹️ ▶️ John you get maximum benefit from having a big screen because you don't have such wasted space above and
⏹️ ▶️ John below Letterbox video. And in portrait, it's like a little iPad. And we know how useful that form factor is. So
⏹️ ▶️ John they started from that shape. And then I, I, what I would say the Apple thing they did was, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John given that we've decided that this is the shape it's going to be, it's going to be short and squat and weird. And it's, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John it's going to be like this. Now, what are all the possible ways that
⏹️ ▶️ John we can make an interface on a thing that folds that is this shape? And they did all of them.
⏹️ ▶️ John They're Like, what can you think of? Brainstorm, put it on the whiteboard. How could we, how could this, imagine
⏹️ ▶️ John they had like a physical wooden model. It's just the shape with a hinge like we all had, or the, you know, the people who 3D printed
⏹️ ▶️ John them. Given this shape hardware, what can we do with software? And they just
⏹️ ▶️ John thought of every possible good idea they could and implemented them all. And it's very impressive.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco It is so much for developers to do, though.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Well, good thing
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco you'll have the
⏹️ ▶️ John seven years that it took Apple to develop this for you to update your app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, my God. So let me just, now that we're on this topic, let me just outline for people what we're talking
⏹️ ▶️ Marco about here with the reality of app development. Okay. All the work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we were talking about with iOS 27, having like a simulator that allows you to resize
⏹️ ▶️ Marco your app, that was one part of making your app work on the Duo.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That was not the hard part. That was not the hardest part. And that was not most of the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work. Because what the Duo does is, as we're saying, it moves
⏹️ ▶️ Marco critical and key navigation elements like toolbars
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and tab bars. It moves them to be vertical, first
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of all. But not all of them. But not yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not all the time. Right. It makes them vertical much of the time on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco side of your app. It changes the safe area ratios completely in addition to the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco aspect ratios of the screens. And by the way, there's lots of different new aspect ratios to account for resizing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of the apps and in different split views and everything like that. So critical parts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of how apps are built are dramatically restructured. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it isn't just restructured in one way. There's like six different modes your
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app could be in, all of which lay out the controls differently. For
⏹️ ▶️ Marco app developers to even start working on that, first of all,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we need Xcode 27.1, which doesn't exist yet. So this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone is coming out in about a month and a half. And for us to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco start developing our apps to account for all of its ridiculous new moves of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the interface requires an SDK that Apple says will be available, quote, later this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco month. So we can't even start yet. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco what we will have to do to make our apps use these new UI paradigms
⏹️ ▶️ Marco correctly without breaking, let alone to start like being good with them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'd say it's six months of work for most apps, maybe a year. So I think the reality
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of what the app situation on the Duo is going to be like,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco first of all, every developer needs to buy one of these. and, And it's a lot of money.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So for small developers, that's going to be a burden. I know that. I'm not minimizing that. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you have an iPhone app, you're going to have to buy one of these because you're going to have to test with it. You're going to have to handle it. You're going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have to see how things are reachable. And I have a whole thing about that in a second. But this is something where the simulator
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is not going to be enough. You're going to want the physical device to design your apps on and test them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But the amount of work this is, it isn't like adding another size
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of iPhone. It is a way more involved process than that. You're going to see a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of apps that are going to need complete redesigns to work with this or to at least take
⏹️ ▶️ Marco advantage correctly without like weird letterboxing and stuff like that. You're going to see a lot of that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so the reality of owning this phone for the first year is going to be most of your apps are
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not going to be updated for this for months. I would say maybe by next summer,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, that might be finally like everything will kind of look and work correctly.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But it's going to be a while. And for app developers, this is just,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, yes, it's exciting as Apple fans, but to have this level of change
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and to have less than a month and a half to do it and to not even give us
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the tools to do it on day one, that's a real slap in the face. Like, and I'm,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I'm sure I'm excited about the hardware in most ways, except for one really giant one. I'm excited about the hardware
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in most ways. However, as a developer, this is a huge middle finger to us.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like, they could not have prepared us less well for this and given
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. I want to reiterate or, or, you know, double, I don't think double down, I'm using that right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But nevertheless, I want to double down, so to speak, on what Marco just said. You know, uh, we
⏹️ ▶️ Casey don't even have access to the current simulator. I know Marco said that a minute ago. I want to reiterate that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They haven't even released the version of Xcode that has a simulator for the iPhone Duo. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they've said it's coming later this month. Now, admittedly, that could be by the time
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this very episode is released. But realistically,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technically, it could be tomorrow. but
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey probably won't be
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Realistically, though, probably not for at least a week or two. And we only have, what, like six weeks until
⏹️ ▶️ Casey this thing is in people's hands? This is a real raw deal for app developers. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that is a real bummer. And my ask of all of you who are listening to the show,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if you're even considering buying an iPhone Duo or perhaps have people in your life who are buying an iPhone Duo,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I beg of you to give grace to especially teams of, I don't know, one
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that not only need to spend $2,000 to $3,000 on this phone, but then
⏹️ ▶️ Casey need to spend days to months to weeks or days to weeks to months to get it
⏹️ ▶️ Casey working right. I know I'm repeating what Marco just said, but I cannot stress enough. I agree with him wholeheartedly.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is a lot. It's not just two screens. It's several different layouts
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in several different configurations. You also, so one of the cool things that the software does, now I'm jumping
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ahead. One of the cool things the software does is it lets you know or lets developers know what the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey state of the hinge is in such a way that you can react to the fact that the phone is slightly
⏹️ ▶️ Casey closed, but not fully closed. The idea here is you move some of the important things out of the crease
⏹️ ▶️ Casey area because that's going to be harder to touch. So that's a different mode. John, I think
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you put in the show notes a tweet from, or a toot from Rafa that indicates some of these, and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we'll put that in the show notes. There's a lot here. There's a lot here. And this is not just,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey oh, it's your iPad app, but smallish. No, no, no, no, no, It's way,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey way more than that. And this is going to take a lot of time. And we are all going to get bombarded
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with one star reviews, and it's going to suck.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, because also keep in mind, like, again, this isn't just new screen sizes. Because it changes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco how controls are laid out, because it dramatically changes safe areas, which
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is, you know, so the for most of iPhone recent history, there's been
⏹️ ▶️ Marco safe areas around the top and around the bottom. The one on the bottom is around the home indicator. Around the top, it's around
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the island. And the idea of the safe area is it's like a layout guide that tells your app, you can
⏹️ ▶️ Marco render like background and scrolling content behind these, but don't put controls behind them. And,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you know, Swift UI, an app kit, an UI kit, they inset the controls to stay away from the safe
⏹️ ▶️ Marco areas. Well, now there are safe areas on the left and right, sometimes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so what's going to, the reality of app development and app usage for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the next year, it's going to be similar to when the iPhone X first came out and introduced
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that safe area around the home indicator on the bottom, where for the, for like two
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years after the iPhone X came out, there were frequently still bugs
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in apps where some control would end up laying itself out under the home indicator. And
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as a user, like you were just, you had to very carefully try to tap around it, or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you might have to just restart the app to get it to work right. It's going to be another two years of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that, but with stuff on the left and right, because so many app developers have never considered the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco possibility of a left and right safe area, even though it's been in the API the whole time, but the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco safe areas were always zero on the left and right. So there's probably a lot of app bugs that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco are going to result from this all of a sudden being a thing that the apps have to lay out their UIs around.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So the type of work this is, it's a huge amount of work. It's also going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just months of bugs in apps and months of broken or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco non-ideal layouts. It's going to be a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And so again, like going into this phone, I do think this is potentially very interesting, but it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be very much like a beta for a while. And by the way, iOS
⏹️ ▶️ Marco itself probably will also have a lot of those bugs because that's what it does too. Like whenever Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco does new stuff with the safe areas, lots of their own apps also have these bugs. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I would totally expect similar levels of bugginess with the built-in system controls and system apps
⏹️ ▶️ Marco as well. Apple is not immune to this problem. So it's going to be a beta. Like treat this phone like a beta
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for at least the first few months, which it might be that long before
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you can get one because the rumors of it being very low production and it's probably going to be very hard to get.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But anyway, before I move on from the fundamental design of this thing,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco so it is Touch ID, not Face ID. Touch ID is in the side
⏹️ ▶️ Marco button, like the sleep-wake button in that area on the right side. They were careful to point
⏹️ ▶️ Marco out that you can enroll multiple fingers and also you can unlock with your watch, which, yes, you've been able to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco unlock your phone with your watch for a long time. They're obviously trying to remind people, hey, Touch ID is not that bad.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Remember, Oh, we made it a little bit less bad with all these things. Anyway, we'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see how that proves to be. The one thing that I am
⏹️ ▶️ Marco concerned about with using this phone, because I am going to get one so that I can develop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco with it. and I'm going to try to live with it for a few weeks at least. But I hold my phone in my left
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hand and I keep my phone in my left pocket. This phone looks like it is very badly
⏹️ ▶️ Marco designed for holding it left-handed. The touch ID button is going to be in the wrong
⏹️ ▶️ Marco spot. I guess I'll enroll like my index finger on my left hand, but that's one problem. But
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the entire UI is made to be used with your right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco thumb holding the phone in your right hand. It's
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of a shame they can't do the Apple Watch flip over You know what I mean? Yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco if you could, maybe you could hold the entire phone upside down, but then then the Touch ID button's in the wrong spot. like
⏹️ ▶️ John but like like I mean, you also have the problem of the the camera sensors and live activity and blah, blah, blah.
⏹️ ▶️ John But like it's they're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco they're almost close to being able to pull an Apple Watch and say,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but like i I think if you are a left-hand phone user, I think this is going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to possibly be terrible, but we'll see. i I hope they thought of
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that or have some kind of, you know, maybe it's not as bad as I think, but like when i I have my little 3D
⏹️ ▶️ Marco printed mock-up of it here from months ago, and like if I, when I'm holding the 3D printed mock-up in my left
⏹️ ▶️ Marco hand, my thumb cannot reach those side buttons on the right. Like it just, it's not going to reach. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I don't know. like this This could
⏹️ ▶️ John be really bad. You got to come around the other side, like uh like you're going around the neck of a guitar and use like your pointer finger to get
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, no, for lefties, this could be rough. And I wonder if there'll be some sort of software toggle to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey move the like navigation bar and all that stuff that's currently on the right-hand side to the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco left-hand side. Yeah, but then
⏹️ ▶️ John you're going to break my layouts
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that way, too. No, actually, it already does that for if you have it open and you have a left-right
⏹️ ▶️ Marco split and you have one app on the left, one app on the right, then the app on the left gets its navigation stuff
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, there you go. Yeah, the question is whether it'll do that when it's closed. Well, they might have not shown everything. Although, speaking of like this being a
⏹️ ▶️ John beta and everything, given my many, many years' experience with plain old iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John and before that, iPod Touch rectangles and their ability to relay out
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen when I rotate to from between landscape and portrait in various apps and how buggy
⏹️ ▶️ John that has been for the entire decade of the iPhone, I
⏹️ ▶️ John look at this and I'm like, oh man, this is like that times a thousand because it's not just one rectangle
⏹️ ▶️ John rotating vertical to horizontal. It's like, all right, what angle is it at? How open is the hinge?
⏹️ ▶️ John Is it one app or two? Like, I can, I'm looking, every demo they gave looked
⏹️ ▶️ John beautiful and perfect with all their built-in apps. And it's like, they call them poses. Here's all the different poses this device
⏹️ ▶️ John can be And It can be portrait or landscape or closed or closed landscape or closed portrait
⏹️ ▶️ John or half open portrait or half open landscape. or like, It's like, wow, there's a lot of poses.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they would transition between all Look how smoothly we transition between all these. Starting from like the cool effect where
⏹️ ▶️ John when you open it up, it makes it look like the top is transparent and you're looking through to the thing all the way down to like rotate
⏹️ ▶️ John it and bend the hinge and put it landscape. And everything was beautiful in these, in these videos, which I assume had simulated
⏹️ ▶️ John images on the screen, but I couldn't really tell because I've heard that the screen is actually kind of matte finish So maybe it wasn't real.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco wow, that's a lot of opportunities for like, oh, you know, when
⏹️ ▶️ John you rotate the phone, like, oh, it didn't rotate or some half part of the UI rotated and some other part didn't. And it's like,
⏹️ ▶️ John or you ever see it like, you're trying to watch a video and the video will be poking out of the side because it's not rotated. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John if we can't get basic rotation right at this point, how is anything, including Apple's built-in
⏹️ ▶️ John apps, going to be as perfect as it was in this video? Like the ideas are all great, but I'm really,
⏹️ ▶️ John really worried about just the basics of implementation involving not just accelerometers,
⏹️ ▶️ John but now also hinge sensors and all that working together with the app. So we'll see. Like the
⏹️ ▶️ John the video made it look beautiful and perfect, but I know from experience with regular phones
⏹️ ▶️ John that it's not going to be the case. And this is just with Apple's built-in apps, which have had the most time possible to get it right.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that was one of the questions everybody had is like, what will your app look like if you don't
⏹️ ▶️ John update it to understand the iPhone Duo? And Apple has videos for that. We'll link
⏹️ ▶️ John to Apple's playlist. They gave like a developer playlist of like six WWC style sessions to tell you stuff that you
⏹️ ▶️ John need to know about the phone. And in that, you'll see screens that says, hey, if your app is built,
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, it was built using something before the iOS 27 SDK, guess what? It's going
⏹️ ▶️ John to look like just a phone app, like a vertical rectangle shoved right in the middle of the
⏹️ ▶️ John crease when you have the thing open, which is like the worst possible place for it.
⏹️ ▶️ John guess, granted, you probably won't bend it, but like, and then when you have it closed, yeah, that whole right side
⏹️ ▶️ John where all the toolbars will be, that's just empty. Like basically your phone app is just a phone app. If you built with the iOS
⏹️ ▶️ John 27 SDK, your phone app is still just a phone app, but when you have the thing fully open, it's more like a wide phone
⏹️ ▶️ John app. And that's the only thing we could do with the simulator that we had like now, like the Xcode
⏹️ ▶️ John 27 simulator. You could try your app wide and not wide, wide and not wide. All of those is not
⏹️ ▶️ John how you want your app to look. It's going to be disappointing to you. But more importantly, someone who just spent two grand
⏹️ ▶️ John or more on a phone,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's going to be disappointing to them because they're like, I spent two grand on this phone. And when I open up
⏹️ ▶️ John the screen, all I do is I see a light up a set of pixels that's like the same size or
⏹️ ▶️ John smaller than my old phone screen sitting in the middle of a sea of blackness. And they don't know it's because that app hasn't been updated
⏹️ ▶️ John yet or whatever, but it'll be really disappointing because it's like, what, what benefit am I getting out of
⏹️ ▶️ John this $2,000 phone? In fact, it's worse than a regular phone because it's shorter and I have fewer pixels lit
⏹️ ▶️ John up and there's just this giant waste of space around it. So this is, I mean, it's a problem for developers
⏹️ ▶️ John and like, oh, you have to update my app and people will be mad at your apps or whatever. But mostly it's a problem for Apple because customers are
⏹️ ▶️ John going to be disappointed if they get this expensive thing and like the only apps
⏹️ ▶️ John that look decent are Apple's built-in ones for a pretty long time.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah. That all being said, and I think all three of us, myself included, are being kind of, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey know, downers at the moment, but the hardware does look
⏹️ ▶️ Casey extremely cool. I'm still unconvinced I would want this as a full-time daily phone, although
⏹️ ▶️ Casey currently that's probably my plan, at least for a little while, to live with it and see how it feels.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But the hardware seems to be very slick. They talked about how they have a variable torque
⏹️ ▶️ Casey hinge. When it's open, it is the thinnest iPhone ever. They made brief
⏹️ ▶️ Casey mention of something being in the camera plateau, just like the iPhone Air. And then later they were showing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like mocked up internals of the phone, and it looked like the CPU was kind of dead center. So I'm not entirely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sure which one of these is real or maybe I misunderstood.
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, you skipped over the FaceTime camera, and I want to give a comment.
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Oh, sorry. Yes.
⏹️ ▶️ John The FaceTime camera is under the screen, as the rumor said. Um, And later in the video, they showed how it's under screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John but they showed like, oh, here's what it looks like. Actually, we leave out like a whole bunch of the the, the
⏹️ ▶️ John sub pixels, you know, instead of having RGB, RGB, or whatever pattern that they have, they leave out a bunch of them, basically
⏹️ ▶️ John making it like a like a window screen so that more light can get through to the camera. Uh,
⏹️ ▶️ John Earlier in the video, when they were showing, I guess it must have been not simulated image. I guess it must have
⏹️ ▶️ John been the real image on the phone. and they were showing images of the iPhone duo in unfolded mode
⏹️ ▶️ John or whatever, I thought like, wow, this, what a weird
⏹️ ▶️ John you know, mistake for Apple, usually so careful. They had dust on their sensor when they took this
⏹️ ▶️ John was, because there was a little telltale, slightly darker circular region, which is what it looks like when
⏹️ ▶️ John you have dust on your camera sensor. Uh, but, And then I was like, maybe it's not dust on the sensor
⏹️ ▶️ John of Apple's camera. Maybe it's a smudge on my pro display XDR, which I never touch. I'm like, how is that possible? Did someone
⏹️ ▶️ John come into my house and touch my screen? But then they scroll the worst crime someone could commit against you.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. It is. It would be terrible. But then they like scroll
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco the iPhone off screen like please
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Take all the valuables. Just don't do that.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like like the iPhone, like the iPhone that they were showing a picture of, like lifted up and like they, they basically
⏹️ ▶️ John they moved the camera so it was pointing down. And when that happened, the smudge moved
⏹️ ▶️ John with the phone. I'm like, that wasn't dust on the sensor. And that's not a smudge on my screen
⏹️ ▶️ John because in both of those cases, it shouldn't have moved. Dust on the sensor shouldn't move and smudge on my screen shouldn't move when the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John moves in the in the frame. What that was, was the clearly visible
⏹️ ▶️ John circular section of the screen that the face ID camera is behind. And if I
⏹️ ▶️ John could pick it up in Apple's video, I have to think that's going to be visible to the naked eye
⏹️ ▶️ John looking at this phone, which is pretty disappointing. Like the whole point of putting it under the screen is I don't
⏹️ ▶️ John want some portion of the screen that I can't use. And also I don't want to like see, it's like it's invisible. It's gone. I
⏹️ ▶️ John guess you can still use that portion of the screen, but if that portion of the screen is essentially a dimmer
⏹️ ▶️ John circle because it literally has fewer light up pixels in that area than the rest of the screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John that is another disappointing technical limitation of how they chose to this phone. I'd almost rather have
⏹️ ▶️ John just the plain old like dynamic island cutout thing, just make that bigger, because at least that's an honest,
⏹️ ▶️ John like, look, we had to make this so that the camera could see out of it. But instead, they did this underscreen thing and in
⏹️ ▶️ John the video, in Apple's own video, it's not look good. So I'm a little worried about that.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, I think the the reality is like, you know, you're going to see the crease
⏹️ ▶️ Marco after a while too. like You didn't see the crease in the video. You didn't, but you know most of the hands-on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco videos so far have basically said like, yeah, you do kind of see it. um And, you know, we don't know how this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is going to age over time. Like, you'll, you'll probably see it more over time. So I think the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reality of using this kind of device is like you're not going to have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a perfect uninterrupted span of screen. And you don't already with today's phones. Like, you know, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco have the cutouts for the camera and dynamic islands. of Like, it's fine. You kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of, you get used to it. You stop seeing it. That's probably going to happen here too. You know, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco will eventually notice the crease. If you don't notice it on day one, like you'll notice the crease. You'll notice the dim
⏹️ ▶️ Marco little circle where the camera's under the screen. And you'll notice it for a day and then you'll stop noticing
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. It'll be fine.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, the thing is with the dynamic island, I don't look at that unless there's a live activity around it. But with the
⏹️ ▶️ John thing under the screen, there could be content under that. And so I'm forced to look at it to read the content
⏹️ ▶️ John or to watch the thing that's over there. And now I'm forced to see that stupid smudge. I don't know. We'll see how it looks in person.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco John, this is the liquid glass era. There could be content under everything. There usually is.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But we're spotlighting your content. Our controls float over your content.
⏹️ ▶️ John careful. Don't put your stuff under there because you won't be able to get to it. But you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco can see it sort of, but it's blurry. But it's like, it's just not a great idea.
⏹️ ▶️ John Although I also will point out like, you know, we always talk about the signals Apple sends to developers
⏹️ ▶️ John about upcoming changes. And obviously when they have the simulator and the touch stuff, and we're like, you know, well,
⏹️ ▶️ John the touch stuff for touch max. But anyway, the simulator being wider for wider phones. And we're like, yeah, that's for the, that's for the
⏹️ ▶️ John um the foldable phone, obviously. And we were right, although there was much more to it than that, as we've already said.
⏹️ ▶️ John But one of the other things that is so clearly for the foldable phone that I don't think a lot of people clocked,
⏹️ ▶️ John but the people have been complaining about for at least a year now, maybe more. I forget when they started doing this, was
⏹️ ▶️ John the new like toolbar arrangement where you don't get to pick where your toolbar items are.
⏹️ ▶️ John You just get to say like, this is the primary one. And this is the tertiary second from left, second
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco most important
⏹️ ▶️ John third cousin one. And you're like, you give them all these semantic names. And it's like, why don't you just lay,
⏹️ ▶️ John let me lay them out? This is the first one, the second one, the third one, the fourth one. And when the overflow, just give me an overflow menu. And Apple's
⏹️ ▶️ John like, no, just tell us the role they provide. And that was 100% for the stupid phone
⏹️ ▶️ John because what they do is they take your toolbar and they say, okay, your primary and secondary are going to be here.
⏹️ ▶️ John Unless your primary is a wide button, then that's going to be on the top, in which case you're going to have your primary and tertiary and third
⏹️ ▶️ John cousin on the right. Like they split up the things in your toolbars according to their
⏹️ ▶️ John roles and put them where they think they should go. Sometimes they're on top, sometimes on their side, sometimes they're the top of the side, sometimes
⏹️ ▶️ John at the bottom of the side, sometimes they're on the left, sometimes they're on the right. And if you had a toolbar API that said, tell
⏹️ ▶️ John me what goes in position one, two, three, and four, this would never work. So those semantic
⏹️ ▶️ John positions that have been driving developers up the wall for such a long time, is like, I don't
⏹️ ▶️ John have enough control over my toolbar. Just tell me where things should go. Apple should have said, you're going to have even less control of your toolbar
⏹️ ▶️ John pretty soon. So get used to it. Oh, and if you did a custom toolbar, good
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I mean, honestly, this is this is part of why I'm, I'm dreading all the work that I have to do now, because
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I have done a lot of custom work here and there. Like, because when this is, this is the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco story as old as Apple development time, that like Apple gives you these stock
⏹️ ▶️ Marco widgets and controls and everything that work as long as you're making like, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, the ice cream stand WBC developer sample app. And then the moment it
⏹️ ▶️ Marco interacts with the real world, like, oh, well, hmm, it doesn't really fit this need I have or
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this use case or this condition in the real world. So I have to start doing a little bit of customization
⏹️ ▶️ Marco or workarounds or something or re-implementations of certain things. And then Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco goes and does something like this and it breaks all of that. Like this is just the cycle of Apple development. But the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco reality is that you do often have to do that kind of stuff to make a good app.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So this constant cycle always exists. Like one of the one thing about this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco current, you know, what I'm seeing here, like we've been hearing for a while, and the iOS styles have
⏹️ ▶️ Marco been for a while, pull stuff away from the edges. Why? Okay,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco well, for a while, we thought the reason was they were going to do that rumored 20th anniversary phone that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was like all glass curving over the screen would curve around the edges. And they still are. And yeah, they might still be doing that. We'll
⏹️ ▶️ Marco see. But we thought it was for that. It's also for this, because now they're saying, oh, we're going to put controls
⏹️ ▶️ Marco on the left and right edges. So therefore, you can't have UI that goes all the way to the edge because it won't look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco right or it'll go under the controls or it'll get cut off weirdly. But at the same time, now
⏹️ ▶️ Marco we have to design our UIs to pull everything in from the edges. Except to do
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that requires the whole UI to be narrower and to waste space on the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco left and right that we weren't wasting before, which means when you render one of those on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Display Zoom on a smaller phone, it's not going to fit. So it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco going to be very difficult for us to develop and design the same UI to work on,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, an iPhone 13 mini or an iPhone SE with Display Zoom on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to have that same UI fit and work on a modern iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Duo that you have to pull everything away from the edges.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, that's what they're trying to get you to do with these flexible toolbars and stuff. Like they've tried to show it is like, look, basically the the place
⏹️ ▶️ John you're going to get to draw is going to be similar to a traditional iPhone proportion. It's just that all your toolbars
⏹️ ▶️ John that used to have on the top and bottom, we've chucked to the four winds to the sides, but some items are still on the top.
⏹️ ▶️ John Like it's, they're like, look, if you just used our standard controls and you didn't try to do anything custom and you did it
⏹️ ▶️ John just the way we did it, your app's actual content should still roughly be
⏹️ ▶️ John phone proportion. It's just that phone proportion thing is going to be that rectangle is going to be moved all over
⏹️ ▶️ John the place. And all the things that you had on top and bottom are now going to be squirming all around the sides of your phone. But you don't have to worry about
⏹️ ▶️ John that because if you follow their APIs and use standard controls, that'll all be taken care of. But like you said, Marco,
⏹️ ▶️ John nobody is only user. Most, Most app developers are not only using standard controls in the standard
⏹️ ▶️ John way with no customization because that would be very boring app. No, and in fact, Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco discourages that. Like, what wins ADAs? It's nothing that has like
⏹️ ▶️ Marco really, you know, bog standard controls. It's all rich custom designs. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like Apple encourages developers to go custom and to make very, you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know, very, you know, elaborate custom rich designs. That's what I'm saying. Like Apple encourages
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this. They push for it and the market rewards it. And so for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco them to keep saying like, oh, well, if you use standard controls, you get all these behaviors for free, but don't use standard controls
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that much. Like, you know, it does create this friction. But anyway, it's going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco be so much work. And I'm sure we'll get to a place where it's good eventually, but it's a lot
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of work to do in a very short time.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah. I mean, like we did with the iPhone 10, There was a long time where there was like non iPhone 10 savvy apps and
⏹️ ▶️ John some of their stragglers or whatever, but we eventually did get over the hump. So I just, I do want to give lots of credit for
⏹️ ▶️ John the very thoughtful, really good software design to fit this hardware. I don't know
⏹️ ▶️ John if the hardware is any good. I don't know if this is the right shape for a phone. I don't know if it's useful to carry. People like it, blah, blah, blah.
⏹️ ▶️ John But but again, starting from the premise that the phone is this shape and has the hinge here, amazing job on
⏹️ ▶️ John the software. Just really clever, thoughtful. And like I said, they did everything. Like when I saw them
⏹️ ▶️ John turning it upside down, like a little tent and it turns into an alarm clock, I'm like, okay, now you're just showing off. Like they're just,
⏹️ ▶️ John we had, we should continue on because there's so many cool things they do with this software wise with their own apps to show
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey like the things.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So uh, they did a lot with the software. Like you were saying,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey they specifically said they took advantage of liquid glass in order to make this work. Um, They,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like I said, have the status bar basically as a circular widget in the corner. Um, You can have two
⏹️ ▶️ Casey home screen pages at once, side by side. You can have two apps side by side. If you tap the little knuckle
⏹️ ▶️ Casey handle, whatever you call it thing in the center between the two apps, you can link them together as one unit, even
⏹️ ▶️ Casey if it's two different apps. Um, JAWS eventually came up in the dark as always and said that the,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the interior display is a 7.6 inch Super Retina XDR display,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 50% larger than the Pro Max and 80% larger over the Pro. The outer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey display is 5.4 inches, which is 90% of the pixels of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey iPhone 18 Pro. They said that later this year, it will work with the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pencil with USB-C. So I have a second-gen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Apple Pencil Pro, the one that only ever charges via magnets on my iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Pro. That will not work with this, I don't think, but rather the one that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey you can plug in via USB-C by, I think it's like a little section near the top that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco you kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey open up. I've never actually had one. That will later this year work with either display
⏹️ ▶️ Casey interior or exterior, which is kind of cool.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. That is really, like finally, an iPhone sort of an iPhone with
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Pencil support. That's really cool. You see a stylus, they blew it. Yeah, right. This
⏹️ ▶️ Marco excites me. Like, cause I, again, like, I love the idea of the Apple Pencil and I love using it sometimes.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I just am not really an iPad person. I almost never have an iPad with me. So this is very promising.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Also, this type of pencil, the USB-C one, most people don't know.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco There's an entire world of very inexpensive Apple Pencil compatible
⏹️ ▶️ Marco pencils from other brands that work exactly the same now as the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pencil natively with every modern iPad. And they cost like 25 bucks. They're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco way cheaper than Apple's. They're all over Amazon. There's a bunch of different brands that make them. And so if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this works the same way, which it probably does, because they're all USB-C and you plug them
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in to sync them and then that's it. They're synced. They're done. Then this will probably work
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just fine with those too, which means there will be a rich third-party ecosystem
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of little stubby pencils that will work with the duo. That'll be great.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So I think this could be very exciting for lots of different use cases
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for the pencil. This could be wonderful.
⏹️ ▶️ John So one of the things they mentioned when they went over the screens and their construction and all the
⏹️ ▶️ John different layers and how they fold and how they're fighting the crease and blah, blah, blah, was they talked about the very top layer,
⏹️ ▶️ John which I think what they described as some kind of polymer material, blah, blah, blah. But basically the
⏹️ ▶️ John top layer that you touch with your finger is plastic. Some special exotic kind of plastic,
⏹️ ▶️ John but plastic. Not glass. Even though other layers of the sandwich may be
⏹️ ▶️ John glass. And that is relevant to the stylus because presumably they picked a plastic that is
⏹️ ▶️ John harder than the tips on their own stylus or whatever. But if you're looking for a way to potentially
⏹️ ▶️ John mar your screen, using a stylus with force on it, especially around the crease
⏹️ ▶️ John area, is probably a strong candidate. So I do wonder how that's going to work out. That's also
⏹️ ▶️ John one of the reasons that maybe, I don't know if it's one of the reasons, but it makes sense to me that this screen would have a kind of a matte
⏹️ ▶️ John finish to it, kind of like the paper-like covers that they have for iPads or the nanotexture iPad. And that if you are
⏹️ ▶️ John going to draw on it with a pencil, it's not as much fun to have a slick glass thing with a smooth
⏹️ ▶️ John plastic thing sliding over it. And so, yeah, this is nano-textured plastic,
⏹️ ▶️ John laser-etched nano-textured plastic that hopefully your stylus won't mar up.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. They have speakers on the top and the bottom. Like we said, no face ID, but touch ID,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which bums me out. I get it, but it bums me out. The colors are star
⏹️ ▶️ Casey white and night sky. They talked a lot about how it's very robust, very
⏹️ ▶️ Casey stiff, that they have a million layers on the display on the interior.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey There's ceramic shield on the back and ceramic shield two on the front. It's also
⏹️ ▶️ Casey IP68 rated for dust and water resistance, which is a maximum depth of six
⏹️ ▶️ Casey meters for up to 30 minutes, which is the same as the iPhone 18 Pro. This is, a, I think,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a pretty vast improvement from all the Android ones, which are not at all this robust.
⏹️ ▶️ John I found this shocking because as we all know with the foldable phones, or maybe you don't if you haven't thought about it, there's a region of the
⏹️ ▶️ John screen that is in the middle, at the crease, that is not like a fixed permanently to
⏹️ ▶️ John something because it has to bend and it can't crease. You know, the phone, the phone folds completely shut,
⏹️ ▶️ John but you can't have a crease like that bends on itself to that degree with the screen. You need some kind of
⏹️ ▶️ John curve radius. And so the phone always has the hinge always has a place for the screen to go so
⏹️ ▶️ John it can curve more gently and not snap in half or break, which means there's like an air
⏹️ ▶️ John gap for the screen to go into. And how do you water seal something that has an air gap?
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, there must be a part where the screen joins the rest of the phone and becomes affixed to it again.
⏹️ ▶️ John And that has to be water sealed at that crease. And same thing on the other end. That has to be sealed. And the hinge itself has to
⏹️ ▶️ John be sealed. And obviously sealing up the parts where like the batteries and the SOCs are, they know how to do that. It's like a phone, but
⏹️ ▶️ John that screen interface to the rest of it, I'm amazed that they were able to pull this off. And it makes me even more angry that
⏹️ ▶️ John all their laptops die if
⏹️ ▶️ John put a tiny bit of water on them, Casey. But like the fact that this has, and
⏹️ ▶️ John I looked it up the thing, like according to their spec pages, this has the same waterproofness as an iPhone 18 Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is amazing for a folding phone. So I hope someone on YouTube but both tries out if they
⏹️ ▶️ John can scratch the screen with an Apple pencil and also puts this thing in a cup of water and see how it does. I mean, I believe
⏹️ ▶️ John them, but it's like another amazing technical feat. And like I said last time, when we were talking about the iPhone Air Exit interview.
⏹️ ▶️ John I also imagine that using what they learned from the air, this thing is incredibly stiff and incredibly sturdy.
⏹️ ▶️ John But you can bet, even though I'm totally not buying one of these, that I will go to the Apple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey store as soon as they have them and play with it extensively. You should buy one, but I know I'll never convince
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is your job, John.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not my job to buy everything that Apple releases.
⏹️ ▶️ John That's not the job of a critic. The job of a critic is not to buy everything that Apple releases.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Casey, don't worry. John's job is to buy the things we don't want to buy.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I guess. I mean, well, there's a million places I can go from here, but I will walk
⏹️ ▶️ Casey away. Hey, so Craig came up and he had a bunch of things to say, including that there is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a new minimalist wallpaper view on the lock screen where basically everything gets out of the way and you just see a giant wallpaper.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can do two up split view multitasking, like I was saying. You can also launch a second window
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of the same app if supported. The example they gave is two Safari windows. Like I said earlier, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can tap on the divider to pair apps for a kind of spaces like experience. You can pin a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey video to the top while multitasking. Hand to God, I'm not kidding, this looks so hot
⏹️ ▶️ Casey because there's so many times I want to do two things at once. And one of them is just have a video, not literally in
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the background, but figuratively in the background. And this lets you pin the video to the top and you still
⏹️ ▶️ Casey have plenty of space down below. Genuinely excited for this. We had talked about earlier, you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey can use in various different orientations, what they call poses. You could do a tent.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey You can do an L, including with a video in the vertical portion of the L, or
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the L being like a laptop, if you will. A video on the quote-unquote laptop screen and the controls
⏹️ ▶️ Casey where the keyboard would be. They were very excited about Netflix, which gave a demo of their edits
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to their app that supports this.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, Netflix won't do anything for the Vision Pro, but make a foldable phone, and Netflix is there.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Indeed. Speakers will react to the position of the hinge to try to make things sound right, including
⏹️ ▶️ Casey when things are partially folded. iOS, like I said earlier, will try to move junk away
⏹️ ▶️ Casey from the crease wherever possible. You can do standby even when you're not charging. If you recall,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey standby is when you put your phone in a landscape position, but it only turns on when the phone is charging.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey In this case, you can do standby even when it's not charging, when it's in like tent mode, if you will.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This makes for a very good bedside clock, including they made brief mention, but I don't think they showed it, of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey wake up with a gentle glow. Um, So this could wake you up by just brightening
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the screen over time, which is uh, the way I, I don't typically wake up to an alarm, but when I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do, that's how I wake up is there's a light next to my bed that glows very nicely. Um,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that is much less jarring than you know, your wrist vibrating or an alarm playing.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Um, They brought Johnny Srugi out for the display. It's so weird. I'm like,
⏹️ ▶️ John wait, what chip is he going to talk about?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey Yeah, exactly. No,
⏹️ ▶️ John he's not talking about chips now. He's the head of all hardware. Okay.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Oh, that's what uh
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John That's why it's confusing, right?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco is he out there?
⏹️ ▶️ John But like, he got elevated to be like hardware guy. And hey, this is hardware. That's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So always on HDR, 120 hertz display with P3, 1,000 nits typical, 1,600
⏹️ ▶️ Casey nits for HDR, 3,000 nits outdoors, one nit minimum brightness.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey This is all the same as the iPhone 18 Pro and 17 Pro. The resolution,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the interior resolution is 1878 by 2670 at 430
⏹️ ▶️ Casey PPI. The outer resolution is 1398 by 2034 at
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 460 PSI. I almost say PSI,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which is 30 PPI better.
⏹️ ▶️ John It's interesting this is the PPI difference. I'm not quite sure why they chose that. The outer screen is just so much easier because it's
⏹️ ▶️ John flat. It doesn't bend. It's got ceramic shield on it. So it's scratch resistant. Like all the things that the inner
⏹️ ▶️ John screen is not, the outer screen can be. And I just, for whatever reason, they picked a different PPI,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is also weird because like they, again, they show the the little opening animation. It makes it seem like the
⏹️ ▶️ John cover of the book, so to speak, is transparent and that when you're opening it up, you can see the
⏹️ ▶️ John screen underneath. Like they do, it's all an illusion. This is kind of like the uh, when the, uh, back of
⏹️ ▶️ John an orange uh, iPhone, uh, 17 Pro looks like the same color as the surrounding thing. From
⏹️ ▶️ John one particular angle, this illusion that they show looks really cool. From any other angle, it's probably
⏹️ ▶️ John it's like watching someone do like a uh, a scene in the volume at ILM, but you're not looking
⏹️ ▶️ John from the right perspective and all the background looks wacky. So we'll see how that looks. But yeah, they have to match that.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they're matching a 460 PPI front screen to a 430 PPI back screen to maintain that
⏹️ ▶️ John illusion. So a little weird, but I mean, I guess it makes sense.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So they have a perceptually flat matte surface. I did see a handful of videos. Tyler
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Stallman put something that I'd seen on Instagram. I don't think I'll be able to find a link for the show notes, especially
⏹️ ▶️ Casey since I think it's a story, which means it'll disappear. But from what I could tell from video,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so asterisk, double asterisk, dagger, double dagger, it did look like the crease
⏹️ ▶️ Casey did disappear visually. Now, my understanding is you can still feel it, but it sure looked
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it just disappeared. This is very TBD. Don't take that as fact. I've not seen one in person.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We will see. But I was impressed.
⏹️ ▶️ John That was the whole pitch of the top layer was like, hey, the crease is going to be there and we can't stop
⏹️ ▶️ John it, but we're going to put this fuzz. That's another, I guess the other reason of the matte texture. We're going to put this thing above it
⏹️ ▶️ John that's going to diffuse the light because the the way you pick it up, if you've seen lots of reviews of these folding phones, is you get a specular
⏹️ ▶️ John highlight at the crease, right? It's like that the light gathers there, reflects as a little curved portion. You get a specular
⏹️ ▶️ John highlight. It makes it super obvious. And they're like, this screen, no specular highlights. Everything is diffuse.
⏹️ ▶️ John We're going to put this and and you know the, the plastic, rumply, laser-coated thing on the top of it
⏹️ ▶️ John also may have a crease in it. But because it's so diffuse, because it is so matte, it dampens
⏹️ ▶️ John down. It spreads the specular highlight that would highlight, highlight, where the crease is over a larger
⏹️ ▶️ John area. I think that's the idea. And that's why I believe, especially with a brand new model that they just put out in front of the press,
⏹️ ▶️ John that it might actually not be possible to see the crease with the naked eye, especially if the screen is bright. You know what I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So they talked a lot about how they made all this work. Like I was saying, there's a gazillion layers to the screen
⏹️ ▶️ Casey with a zillion different materials involved. But one way or another, they
⏹️ ▶️ Casey do their best to try to make this look and feel as good as possible. The A20 has
⏹️ ▶️ Casey a display engine with the dual display support and under-camera display support.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey It has a 35% higher sustained performance over an iPhone 17 Pro,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not the 18. It has the C2 cellular modem, which they specifically cited,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey and this is the first time in an Apple Cellular Modem, 5G millimeter wave in the US,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco which is a feature that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I absolutely love. didn't I was fairly convinced that it was never coming to an Apple modem,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey partially because I don't think anyone uses it, including me anymore. But man, when you have it, it's incredible.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey um The C2 is supposed to be way way more efficient, faster uploads, et cetera. The Duo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is eSIM only worldwide. There are two batteries. There's one on each side of the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey phone that operates seamlessly as one. You get 31 hours of video playback on the inner display, 44
⏹️ ▶️ Casey on the outer display because it's smaller, less to illuminate. 24 hours of usage per charge,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey 50% charge in 20 minutes by wire, five hours of video on the outer display
⏹️ ▶️ Casey after five minutes of charging. Conspicuously absent from the keynote, which got me very nervous,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey was any mention of MagSafe whatsoever. They did say that one of the, that the back of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the closed, when it's closed, that the back is ceramic shield one, which would
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John no, that's not
⏹️ ▶️ John mag safe. It's in the notes somewhere.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm getting there, darn it. So the fact that it's glass on the back made me think maybe
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it has MagSafe, or maybe that's just for, you know, cellular and radio and whatever.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey But no, it does turn out, as John ruined for me, but that's all right. It's all right. It does indeed have MagSafe.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although I did see somewhere that it specifically cites in like the comparison that you can use. I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey forget the specifics, but it's something like you
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Shoot. All right. Where is it? I can't
⏹️ ▶️ John can't find it either. I don't know but it's
⏹️ ▶️ John, Casey in there somewhere. All right.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, oh, there we go. I see it. So MagSafe wireless charging up to 25 watts with 30 watt
⏹️ ▶️ Casey adapter or higher. Compatible with MagSafe cases, wallets, wireless chargers, and more.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Although I think that's wrong. I think the duo is not compatible with wallets, if I recall correctly.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think I copied and pasted that from their comparison page. So maybe the compare page is wrong, but it seemed like it had the same kind of entry
⏹️ ▶️ John as everything else.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Well, maybe I've got it wrong. I don't know. Just go do a little investigation. But the point is, we had heard,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey okay, no face ID, true, bums me out, but we'll see how the touch ID is.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey We had heard no MagSafe really bummed me out because I almost never plug
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in my phone anymore. uh That turns out to be not true, which I'm very excited about. And the other thing we heard was
⏹️ ▶️ Casey that the camera situation was, as compared to the Pro anyway, not going to be stellar. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey let me tell you, that is correct and I am very sad about it. There is a Fusion main camera,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey which has the fake 2X zoom where they do a crop of the full
⏹️ ▶️ Casey frame. It does do 4K, 120 frames per second video. No variable aperture,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey no Apple reference image support. The zoom levels are half 1 and 2x
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as compared to the Pro, which is half 1, 2, 4, and 8. This means there is no telephoto. There's a
⏹️ ▶️ Casey ultra-wide and a main camera. There's no telephoto. And your boy is not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey happy about it, y'all. Not happy. What are you going to do? But that's all right. It's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, it doesn't have Pro RAW either. The selfie camera is also lesser. It's a
⏹️ ▶️ John 12-megapixel center stage instead of 18 on the 18 Pro and Max.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That's right. The interior camera, the underscreen camera is not nearly as good.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Although it does have
⏹️ ▶️ John dual capture FaceTime thing, which is nice.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yes. So we're jumping ahead ever so slightly, but that's totally fine. It does dual capture FaceTime.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So you can do dual capture like when you're recording video, but you can also do duo
⏹️ ▶️ Casey FaceTime, which is where you're holding it open and you're seeing
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the other person and yourself. And at the same time, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey back display, what would normally be the outer display, is showing the remote person
⏹️ ▶️ Casey so that somebody else that's not you, that's looking at the back of your phone can also participate
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in what's going on, which is very, very slick. I'm curious to see, maybe they showed it and I just didn't catch it. I'm curious
⏹️ ▶️ Casey to see what this looks like on the other side of the call. Do you get two views? Like, do you get both
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the view of me and the view of Marco in front of the back camera? I don't know.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco But I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco ultimately, like the dynamics of having a screen
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that can face the same way as the back cameras, that's going to sell a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lot of these in lots of different ways.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think about like, they showed it for two seconds in the video, but being able to take
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a selfie using the best camera on the phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a huge advantage of foldables. Because the back, you can use the back camera while
⏹️ ▶️ Marco looking at a screen and you can see what it's taking. Like That changes so much about
⏹️ ▶️ Marco taking pictures. So that, like, I think a lot of people are going to buy the folding
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phones and stick with them forever for that reason alone.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they showed it. It's also its own stand, which
⏹️ ▶️ John the feature they have where like it waits for everyone to be looking at the camera and staying still to take the picture. So you don't have to use timers or
⏹️ ▶️ John anything, but it is its own stand. You just put it into a little L shape. You point it where you want. Everyone gathers in front of it. The smart
⏹️ ▶️ John software waits until everybody is looking at the camera and takes the picture. Like this is what I, again, I think they like thought of
⏹️ ▶️ John everything. They had the thing where like you're taking a picture of a little kid. So it shows a little animation of Snoopy on the screen that
⏹️ ▶️ John they can see to make them smile.
⏹️ ▶️ John just every good idea that they had, they put into this phone software wise.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yep. Uh, Yeah, that's called KidQ, where they show Snoopy or perhaps other things on the outer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey display, such that the kid is very amused and smiles. Uh, We mentioned the Smart Take thing, which is where
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it, it will hit the shutter on its own once it thinks everyone's ready. Uh, the, They have a couple
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of cases. They have an iPhone Duofolio with an integrated kickstand. I can't
⏹️ ▶️ Casey decide if this is the least appealing case I've
⏹️ ▶️ Casey or the most clever case I've ever seen.
⏹️ ▶️ John kudos for them for just saying, look, we're going to we're going to try it. We're going to do cases. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John third parties are going to do them. So would Apple do a case? Yeah, it reminds me of like the, the, the original iPad
⏹️ ▶️ John case where like Apple's
⏹️ ▶️ John we think the iPad might need a case. How's this? And everyone was like, nope, that's not it, but good try. I look at
⏹️ ▶️ John these and I'm like, is that it? I don't know. It's it's something. Yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey They also have a duo case, which has two parts that wrap around each half. Starting price,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey as we all pretty much expected, two grand for
⏹️ ▶️ John That's better than a lot of the people that saw the predictions. Like, oh, how much is this going to cost? I mean, they got it $1,999,
⏹️ ▶️ John right? That is, I think, the lowest end of any of the predictions I saw. It was like, maybe they'll
⏹️ ▶️ John get it for $2,000. And everyone's like, no, it's not even going to start under that. It's going to be more. So kudos to
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple for, again, beating expectations for the base price of what this very expensive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah. And I think that makes it pretty reasonably competitive with the other folding
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phones on the market. They're all in the same price range. And for Apple to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco shipping their top of the line implementation of these ideas for Apple prices
⏹️ ▶️ Marco and for it to be competitive is pretty impressive.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, so it'll go up to two gigabytes, but again, two grand for 256 gigs. Pre-orders
⏹️ ▶️ Casey start on October 16. They are available on the 23rd.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And that was the entire presentation. I'm going to circle back in a second to more phone stuff. But what we did
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not see in this presentation,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey not happy about, no new Apple TVs. Hopefully they're going to do some like home oriented presentation
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sometime in like October.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John Or it's a press release
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Or a press release product. I'd be fine with that.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John They could do it with
⏹️ ▶️ John the the home pod with the screen thing this would fit right in there.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I don't think there was ever any chance of Apple TVs being in this event because the pattern they've followed for many, many
⏹️ ▶️ Marco years is like the iPhone event in early September is iPhones and
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Apple Watches and basically nothing else. And then later, I guess AirPods
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in this case, too but And then later on in the fall, there's the October event. And that's more if there's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco any Macs, iPads, and home products, they go in that event. So that I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco would expect Apple TV, if they do their like home dock thing, like if that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes it into this year, that's rumored, that I would expect to be in the October event as well.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco So that was never going to happen this time, Casey. Sorry.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I know. Intellectually, I know that, but damn it, I want a new one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But don't worry. We're going to be very busy over the next month changing our entire apps around. Seriously. So don't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco worry. The time will fly by, I assure you. That's very true.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey uh So let's go back. First of all, the chat room seems to be very crotchety about the fact that nobody's going to buy this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Obviously, I don't know, but let me tell you, I really think that this is going to sell better
⏹️ ▶️ Casey than any of us, including me, expect. In no small part, because anyone who does any
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sort of the like prototypical content creation, so like Instagram, TikTok, something like that, this phone
⏹️ ▶️ Casey seems tremendous for that. I'm not saying like shooting a commercial with this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, you're going to get an 18 Pro for that. But if you're doing more casual, now it could be professional,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but yet seemingly casual
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John content camera.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Yeah, exactly. I'm trying not to be derogatory, but yes, that's what I'm driving at. As an influencer
⏹️ ▶️ Casey creation device, this seems to be freaking perfect.
⏹️ ▶️ John Actually, I'm going to say this about the influencer thing of this. Here's the role this plays in the influencer world. They're going to shoot
⏹️ ▶️ John it on their Sony whatever, Z, whatever, but they'll be holding this phone in the whole video.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey No, that could be.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John That's how it's going to work. because it because of status
⏹️ ▶️ John item I mean, the saving grace that this has is the reports are that they're,
⏹️ ▶️ John first of all, that they're not manufacturing a lot of them and that the manufacturing is going slower than expected. So
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe they'll sell every single one of these they could make and we just don't know how many that's going to be. But
⏹️ ▶️ John yeah, like I think their Apple's presentation of this device, why would you want this? Having
⏹️ ▶️ John not touched the thing with my hands, I don't even have a model. From what I saw in the video, I'm like, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John they have a compelling case. Cause like, And I was amazed in the ad that they didn't show that some of the most compelling stuff. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John show the thing where the person you're taking a picture of can tell you that they're not frame right and to
⏹️ ▶️ John move. Show the thing where it's entertaining a kid and take like show the thing where it's like a little laptop where the video
⏹️ ▶️ John controls for once do not dim the entire video image so it can show a giant pause
⏹️ ▶️ John button in the middle of it and take three seconds after you hit play to go one, two, three. Okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John now undim. All the controls can be away from the video like they were in QuickTime Player 7
⏹️ ▶️ John back in the days when our controls didn't float on top of our content. Well, those days are back again with the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ John Duo. Like this is an easy phone to sell in ads. Not so easy
⏹️ ▶️ John once they see the price tag, but I think it will be perceived as a luxury high-end
⏹️ ▶️ John good, even if it turns out that most people don't want to use a phone in this aspect ratio. We'll see how that goes because again, Samsung's
⏹️ ▶️ John out there with their copycat phone in the same aspect ratio, but until this phone and the Samsung
⏹️ ▶️ John one, I don't think there were a lot of foldable phones in this particular dimension. So it's kind of an unknown,
⏹️ ▶️ John but I don't, you know, yes, it's horrendously expensive, even more so elsewhere in the world. But I feel like
⏹️ ▶️ John this is kind of like, you know, it's a high-end product that not a lot of people are going to buy.
⏹️ ▶️ John And, you know, the bigger question is follow up phones, the
⏹️ ▶️ John Duo 2, Duo 3 in the future. Do they keep making this? Do they, you know, does
⏹️ ▶️ John it eventually become a mass market product? Is it always just going to be a high-end? Like, how is this going to go in the future? But for
⏹️ ▶️ John the very first one, I think they'll probably sell most of what they can make.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Oh, I think they're going to have no problem selling. I think they're going to sell literally every single one of them.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they're going to be backordered for months.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Agreed. I want to go back to something you said about aspect ratio. I meant to bring this up earlier and I forgot. Something that occurred to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey me is that even though I do mostly like the size of my iPhone 17 Pro, not the Pro
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Max, but the 17 Pro, first of all, I am deeply committed to using it with a pop socket because I just feel like
⏹️ ▶️ Casey it's too big for my hand anyway. It's too big to use without. But I cannot reach
⏹️ ▶️ Casey past the top, like I cannot reach the top quarter of this phone, maybe, maybe third,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey third to quarter of this phone. And yes, I know that the the pull down reachability, whatever you call it thing exists,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I can't reach the top of the screen. I suspect, hope, that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I will be able to reach much more of the exterior screen, the outer screen on the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Duo than I can on any phone I've had for the last several years. And that is genuinely
⏹️ ▶️ Casey exciting to me. Now, that also doesn't, I'm not acknowledging the fact that they've also moved a lot of the things that I would need to reach
⏹️ ▶️ Casey closer to my thumb as a righty, but even still, even if stuff is still lingering
⏹️ ▶️ Casey at the top of the screen, I suspect I'm going to have a much better time single handing this phone than I have
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a long time. Now, I could be wrong. Maybe the extra width will ruin this idea, but sitting here, ignorance
⏹️ ▶️ Casey is bliss And I think this could be a lot better, and I'm really, really stoked for that.
⏹️ ▶️ John You know, they didn't show, speaking of things reaching things, maybe they showed it in one of the WWDC-style developer
⏹️ ▶️ John videos, but like in open book mode, whatever that mode is called, in landscape, do they do like a
⏹️ ▶️ John split keyboard like the iPad used to have?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That's another thing I meant to bring up. Thank you. I don't think they ever showed a keyboard.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco No, I think text input is going to be a big question mark on this. One thing I've
⏹️ ▶️ Marco always, I've always hated using the on-screen keyboard on iPads, even iPad
⏹️ ▶️ Marco minis. Yep. Because the size of it is just, it's like, it's
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just wrong. It's not what my thumbs are used to on the phone, but it's too small to use like a real keyboard.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Like it just, it never felt right to me. And I think that's going to be
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a challenge for this phone because basically, however you're going to use this
⏹️ ▶️ Marco phone, you're going to have at least two different sizes of the on-screen keyboard. Because if
⏹️ ▶️ Marco you use it closed, that's going to be one size of the keyboard. But then if you open it,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco even if you hold it in portrait opened, it's going to be way wider. So you're going to
⏹️ ▶️ Marco constantly be shifting between different physical sizes of the on-screen keyboard.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco That I think is going to be weird and
⏹️ ▶️ John maybe not good. That's why I think maybe in Landscape that they'll bring back the split keyboard. Did that ever go away
⏹️ ▶️ John on iPad or do people just not use it anymore? I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think it's gone, but it was, I mean, it wasn't good because, again, even then, like you're changing, you're
⏹️ ▶️ Marco changing the physical layout of it. So even if you move the on-screen keys into
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different rows set apart from each other, you're still changing the physical layout of the keyboard between
⏹️ ▶️ Marco different orientations. So I think that's going to be maybe a tough thing for people to get over.
⏹️ ▶️ John Well, as this becomes popular. People will carry this with them much more than they would ever carry an iPad because it does
⏹️ ▶️ John fold and can fit in their pocket. So maybe people will become accustomed to typing in landscape
⏹️ ▶️ John like they did on those sidekick, hip-top sidekick things. I think
⏹️ ▶️ John people will get used to any form factor if they use it enough. I think the outer screen, like the book closed screen,
⏹️ ▶️ John that's fine. That's just a phone keyboard. You'll be fine with that. But if people end up texting with this thing opened in portrait or
⏹️ ▶️ John landscape, I think people will get used to whatever form they put it in. I imagine most people will be messaging
⏹️ ▶️ John with the thing closed, but we'll see.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco We'll see because when it's closed, the screen is pretty short. And so
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think like you're not going to be able to fit a lot of your content above the keyboard
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, it's like the original. It's still bigger than the original iPhone. I think there's plenty of room to see text messages.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, but like my guess is what's going to happen is people who get this are going
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to end up unfolding it and using it open for almost all messaging,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just because they will want the keyboard to be like one size that they're used to, and they'll want more space
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to actually see what they are texting. you know?
⏹️ ▶️ Casey So all in all, I feel like this device, the iPhone Duo, is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey an exercise in compromise, which is what we all expected. You know, We don't have face ID, but we have a pretty
⏹️ ▶️ Casey solid touch ID in theory. We don't have the world's greatest cameras, but
⏹️ ▶️ Casey we have decent ones. The hinge sounds like it's good. The crease sounds
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like it's mostly disappeared. The matte screen is going to be really nice, especially in like sunshine.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey That should be really great. There's a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses, but I have to say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey in a lot of ways, this does seem like a return to form
⏹️ ▶️ Casey for Apple insofar as it's well considered. It seems like they've done
⏹️ ▶️ Casey their best job, as we were talking about earlier, in making, in re-examining all their priors and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey saying, does the dock need to be on the bottom? Does the toolbar need to be at the top? You know, And so on and so forth.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey The animation, when you open it, I forget if we even brought this up, but the animation, when you open this, where you see kind of
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like a fuzzy bit, like a reflected fuzzy bit on the left-hand side as you're
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco opening it up. Oh, that was
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, Casey That is Apple at their best.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Exactly. Incredible. So, like, is it dumb? Kind of,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it's incredible. I think that adds so much to it. And that, that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey animation, as you're opening it, is the apple that the three of us and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, John probably most
⏹️ ▶️ Casey of you listening to this show, that's the apple we want. That is the apple we want. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Casey am so excited to see even a glimmer of that apple. That's
⏹️ ▶️ Casey what I'm talking about. So we were, Marco and I particularly are very embittered,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey very grumpy, very offended about the way the developer story is on this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey, Marco Oh, it's a mess. It's a mess. I stand
⏹️ ▶️ Casey by everything that both of us were saying. But I want to end, I want to turn that frown upside down to end with and say,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I don't know. I will be buying one. That's the next thing I was going to ask is what are you guys doing? I will be buying one. Marco
⏹️ ▶️ Casey said he will be buying one. I will at least attempt to use it full time. I don't know if I'll stick with it or not,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I don't think that this is something I want necessarily,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but I am genuinely excited to try it out. And I think a lot of the reason I'm excited to try it out is because not
⏹️ ▶️ Casey only is the hardware different, which in and of itself is novel, but the software is so different. And again, taking
⏹️ ▶️ Casey off my developer hat and putting on my user hat, that's really exciting. And let me tell you,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I am not huge into the selfie, but I, and I don't FaceTime that
⏹️ ▶️ Casey often. But man, some of the things that they're doing around this, and we don't need to rehash the last half hour,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey but it's so clever and so cool. And the fact that this thing is so versatile,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I mean, I would argue this is the most versatile iPhone ever. And I think that there's so much to
⏹️ ▶️ Casey like about this. Even if you're not in the market for a folding phone, which me,
⏹️ ▶️ Casey the user, I'm not in the market for a folding phone. Me, the developer is, unfortunately, but me, the
⏹️ ▶️ Casey user, not really. But even if you're not in the market, I think there's a lot to be excited about. And
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I genuinely think, price be damned, I think, like Marco said a few minutes ago, this is
⏹️ ▶️ Casey going to sell like crazy. And I'm not even just talking developers. I think this is going to sell and
⏹️ ▶️ Casey sell a lot. So I'm in for one. Marco, you said you're in for one.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey And if you have any other thoughts, I'm happy to hear it.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, I mean, again, I think for developers of iOS apps, I think it's pretty important
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to get your hands on one of these because there's there's no way that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the simulator is going to give us the real world experience of handling and using
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the device. It can get close. It can help us work out the bugs of you know getting
⏹️ ▶️ Marco our crap away from the sidebars and figuring all that stuff out. like you know it can It can help us develop
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like you know the the functional part of the UI, but it's not going to help us develop a great design.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco like It's not going to help us be able to test how how things handle, how things look, how things work. What
⏹️ ▶️ Marco makes a good a good design on the Duo? like We don't really know yet. um So I think
⏹️ ▶️ Marco for developers, it's important to have this. As a user, I don't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco think this will stick for me. um i i think the the compromises
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in some of the weird sizing of it, the text input, the you know, not as good cameras,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not as good speakers. Like I think a lot of that stuff is going to irritate me. Even beyond
⏹️ ▶️ Marco all that, it's heavy. It's it's going to feel like a brick in my pocket. And even though it is a smaller
⏹️ ▶️ Marco brick than in some dimensions, but it's it's thick and heavy. And I think I, I love a
⏹️ ▶️ Marco lightweight phone. And so I don't see myself using it full time to be honest.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But I see a pretty strong reason for me to have one for as a developer.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Do you plan to trial it full time at all?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Yeah, my plan is basically like I'll get it as soon as I can get it. And Because as I mentioned, I'm not getting an 18
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Pro. I'm sticking with my 17 Pro for the time being. So as soon as I can get my hands on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco a duo, like I'm going to try to order it on day one and see what the ship dates are. You know, I'll try to be there right at the beginning, even though
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it's going to be like, isn't it like three in the morning or something? But I honestly don't know. We'll have to look
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that up. But I'm going to try to be there on day one, but we'll see. In the
⏹️ ▶️ Marco meantime, I'll happily keep using my orange phone.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey Fair enough. John, I presume you are not in for a duo. You've all but said that already. So what is the Syracuse
⏹️ ▶️ Casey family purchasing for this fall?
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, I'm just getting a 18 Pro for myself. Um, And I will say that if I, if I had an
⏹️ ▶️ John iOS app, I would probably get this phone just because like like Marco said, like this is such a big
⏹️ ▶️ John change. There's no way to avoid getting this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you want if you want your app to take advantage of it, if you don't want your app to take advantage of it cause you're like, oh, my app, I don't care. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John it's not, you know, it's, it's people who buy this phone are not going to buy my app or whatever, then fine. But
⏹️ ▶️ John like, this is kind of one of those things. It's like getting an ARM Mac. Like if you, you know, I had the DTK when
⏹️ ▶️ John uh, when Max went to ARM, right? If you have Mac apps and, you know, obviously the, the
⏹️ ▶️ John ARM Mac DTK thing was cheaper than $2,000 or whatever, but like it's kind of one of those things you have
⏹️ ▶️ John to do just to make sure your app works right and work out all the problems or whatever. So I
⏹️ ▶️ John do wonder how, what percentage of the people who buy this phone are going to be developers because I mean, it
⏹️ ▶️ John is very expensive, but like if you are an iOS developer and you want your app to
⏹️ ▶️ John take advantage of this, you have to buy the hardware. Um, That's not me. I don't have any iOS apps, so I'm
⏹️ ▶️ John not getting it. I showed it to my wife and she I don't think she quite understands
⏹️ ▶️ John like why anyone would want a phone like this, but I if I could somehow get her to watch that portion of the presentation,
⏹️ ▶️ John I think she would like, oh, that is kind of cool. Um, I fear her deciding that she wants it
⏹️ ▶️ John cause it's a very expensive phone, but next year will be her year. So when she gets her new phone, if she wants to get a fold next
⏹️ ▶️ John year or Duo or whatever, or Duo 2, whatever's out then, that may be the introduction of the Duo into
⏹️ ▶️ John her household, especially if Pokemon Go takes advantage of the screen.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco was going to say, like, could you Remy run two Pokemon Go instances side by side?
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John No, you have to.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think you have to be signed in two different accounts. Maybe if she can do that, she's definitely getting this phone.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, she's Right now, she's just she's salivating at my uh the pristine battery in my uh 16
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro because she's going to get this phone, goes to the Pokemon Mines after I get my new one.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco technically, she could run three instances of it. You know, one on
⏹️ ▶️ Marco, John the back. yeah exactly and burn the battery
⏹️ ▶️ Marco down three times as fast. She would totally do that if that is supported
⏹️ ▶️ John But hey, you know, it's up to the company that's making it to do that. um and i I think
⏹️ ▶️ John I tried to describe that opening animation two times earlier. Like, that's
⏹️ ▶️ John what I was talking about when saying they're trying to make it look like the front of the book, the cover of the book is made of glass and you could see
⏹️ ▶️ John through it. That's what you were getting at, right, Casey? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
⏹️ ▶️ John I mean, like, again, I think that effect only works dead on, but I'm definitely going to try that out. I mean, it's
⏹️ ▶️ John kind of like I can see how they came up with that, but like, I think back to the original iPhone with like the slide animation
⏹️ ▶️ John that works from any angle, but it's so much less impressive. And this is like way more impressive, but only works if
⏹️ ▶️ John you're looking dead on at the phone. But maybe you're always looking dead on at the phone when you open it. Who knows? And it just seems strikes me that the kind of thing
⏹️ ▶️ John that they might change, kind of like the ripple effect in dashboard. They're like, all right, that's enough of that.
⏹️ ▶️ John um we'll see how long this lasts. And also, if that is at all stuttery, it kind of ruins the illusion. So
⏹️ ▶️ John we'll see how that goes as well. But boy, did this phone demo well. And then on the C2 chip
⏹️ ▶️ John in the thing with millimeter wave and everything, I was kind of upset when, because the rumors were that
⏹️ ▶️ John this would get the C2, but the 18 Pro would not. But it turns out that was only half right.
⏹️ ▶️ John The 18 Pro gets the C2, which means that it has the you know, lower power, blah, blah, blah, and
⏹️ ▶️ John also a millimeter wave. So it's like the no compromise. You've got the phone that I'm getting will have the
⏹️ ▶️ John Apple, hopefully good Apple cell radio that still has a millimeter wave, even though I've never
⏹️ ▶️ John actually used it. So it's like no compromises on features and lower power, but for whatever reason, the Pro Max doesn't.
⏹️ ▶️ John I wonder if they just couldn't get fab capacity or something, or they just had some deal with Qualcomm where they had to buy Qualcomm
⏹️ ▶️ John chips for something. Like it's, it's mysterious. I wonder if anyone will get an Apple on the record saying why that split
⏹️ ▶️ John exists. But searching Apple's websites, like, again, that's from Mac rumors. I can't even confirm
⏹️ ▶️ John that that's entirely the case. I believe it. It probably is, but Apple is not touting the
⏹️ ▶️ John fact that one of the 18 phones doesn't have the C2 in it. But But yeah, like
⏹️ ▶️ John they did everything they could with the hardware and software of this phone to give it the best possible chance. The compromises
⏹️ ▶️ John it has are compromises that are necessary from a technological perspective at this
⏹️ ▶️ John price, I will say, because if they wanted to make this a $4,000 phone, it probably could have better cameras. You know what I mean?
⏹️ ▶️ John But like within the realm of how they targeted this product, I think the hardware and software team seemed
⏹️ ▶️ John to have done a good job assuming that the software actually works the way the demo showed it
⏹️ ▶️ John working. Uh, And we'll see how that goes, because especially with stuff like this, where there
⏹️ ▶️ John hasn't been a long beta period where iPhone Duo users have been testing iOS 27
⏹️ ▶️ John beta out in public. No, no one has been testing iOS 27 on this phone except for Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John employees. And that is a way smaller group than all the developers in the world. So expect
⏹️ ▶️ John a little bit of a bumpy road. Best case, it's like the iPhone X was. Worst case, it's
⏹️ ▶️ John like the iPhone 10 times three.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think, I mean, there is one difference, though. First of all, I am extremely optimistic.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I think they're going to sell as many of these as they can make. I think it's going to be way beyond developers
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who buy it. I think it's going to be a significant hit within the category. Now, that
⏹️ ▶️ Marco being said, they're going to sell a hundred times more iPhone Pros than
⏹️ ▶️ Marco this, but this will be a hit relative to other foldables. And I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I definitely think it will substantially outsell the iPhone Air from this past year. Like I think it will be,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it'll be a hit, but it will still be you know, probably less than 10% of the sales. Um, but that,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that would still be a hit. However, what makes it different from the iPhone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco X from the developer point of view is that the iPhone X was the pro phone
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of that year. And it was what all future iPhones would be like, and we knew
⏹️ ▶️ Marco it. So there was a huge volume of customers both there
⏹️ ▶️ Marco in year one and we knew coming down the pipe so that we had a huge incentive
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to update our apps to make them ideal on that device.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Whereas we're not going to have that with this device because this is not the pro phone of this year. It will not be the biggest
⏹️ ▶️ Marco selling phone of this year or probably any year. And the future is not going to be all
⏹️ ▶️ Marco foldables. So this is going to be a new device family
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that we have to accommodate, but it's not going to be the one with the most people in it. So
⏹️ ▶️ Marco that might actually slow down development efforts to adopt to its screen for,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco say, big companies. Like, you know, I can imagine this is going to be the kind of thing that like, you know, Google Docs, for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco instance, like they're going to take forever. Like, you know, that kind of app where a company has
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to justify it, it might not have the volume to motivate that kind
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of development yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Casey All right. Anything else we want to talk about from the event today?
⏹️ ▶️ John Oh, they gave a Golden Gate a release date. It's coming out on the 14th.
⏹️ ▶️ John Cool. I'm excited about it. This is a question for you two, a Real-time question
⏹️ ▶️ John on the air. Is the Xcode RC, can you submit to the app store from that? Yes. All right. Well,
⏹️ ▶️ John then I got some work to do this week.
⏹️ ▶️ John I think we all have a lot. I mean, I just have to submit my already done tested macOS
⏹️ ▶️ John 27 builds of my apps.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, so I had mentioned somewhere else, I think it was here, I had mentioned that I had
⏹️ ▶️ Marco not done any Overcast UI work to lay out for the new phone yet.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco I am so glad I didn't because this this changes everything like It wasn't
⏹️ ▶️ Marco just resizing the app. It's like, oh, move all the toolbars, change the way sheets
⏹️ ▶️ Marco work, add rotation support, which Overcast has never had. Like, it's a tremendous
⏹️ ▶️ Marco undertaking. Like, oh, geez. Okay. So, it yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be some work.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco But at least now I know what I'm aiming for. And maybe someday Apple will give me the tools to do it. All right. Thank you
⏹️ ▶️ Marco to our sponsors this episode, Quince, Factor, and 11 Labs. And thanks to our members
⏹️ ▶️ Marco who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many perks of membership
⏹️ ▶️ Marco is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. Here you are nearly three hours into this episode.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco And just think you could have even more of us because you this is not enough. You need more
⏹️ ▶️ Marco of us. You can hear more of us every week by joining as a member, atp.fm slash join.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco This week on overtime, we're going to be talking about Apple's new business terms for the EU,
⏹️ ▶️ Marco which sounds so delightful and simple. I'm sure it will be. You can hear us talk about that by
⏹️ ▶️ Marco joining. hb.fm slash join thanks everybody we'll talk to you next week
The ending theme
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Cause
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's KC Liss, M-A-R-C-O,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann A-R-M, E-N-T, Marco, Armen, S-I-R-A-C,
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann U-S-A-S-Ira. It's accidental, accidental.
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann They didn't mean to accidental, accidental. Check
⏹️ ▶️ Jonathan Mann the podcast so long.
The Jetty update
⏹️ ▶️ John Quick after show update on my app Jetty that I talked about a couple episodes ago that
⏹️ ▶️ John puts dock-like things all around the edges of your screens. And last time I talked about it, I said I had this weird scheme
⏹️ ▶️ John where I was going to have like a free version on the app store. And then if you have the app store version installed and you
⏹️ ▶️ John download the pro version, uh the pro version will sense that you have the free version or not that
⏹️ ▶️ John it'll sense that you have the app store version and then just run for free because you've already paid through the app store.
⏹️ ▶️ John um And that is a scheme that since then, lots of developers have written to me and said, oh, I do that now. And Apple
⏹️ ▶️ John actually hasn't yelled at me about it. And some people are like, oh, not only do I do it, but inside my app, I tell people
⏹️ ▶️ John to go download the pro version and Apple hasn't stopped me. Again, that doesn't mean
⏹️ ▶️ John that they wouldn't stop me because there's no consistency in the App Store, but at least it is something that people have done
⏹️ ▶️ John and not gotten yelled at. From a technical perspective, it's easy to do. I've already done it. But my
⏹️ ▶️ John news is that I've, you know, and I said like a, ATP members will could be on the test flight and all the other
⏹️ ▶️ John stuff like I did with my other apps and like Casey did with his apps. So I've been doing that and ATP members have been joining the test
⏹️ ▶️ John flight and doing stuff and I have a Slack and we're getting bug reports and doing all the things, right? And during
⏹️ ▶️ John that process, what I pretty quickly discovered is that as
⏹️ ▶️ John I was like fixing bugs and adding features, like I would do like the release notes of like, okay,
⏹️ ▶️ John in this test flight build, I added X, Y, and Z and you know, putting, you know, doing your release notes for your test flight builds.
⏹️ ▶️ John Um, And I kept realizing that like often when I was uploading the test flight build,
⏹️ ▶️ John I didn't have anything to write because I hadn't actually changed anything in the Mac App
⏹️ ▶️ John Store version of the app because every single feature I added was only in the pro version.
⏹️ ▶️ John Because you can't do anything in the Mac App Store. Everything is,
⏹️ ▶️ John API, this. And no, you can't do that. And I tried to get like seven different entitlements that would have let
⏹️ ▶️ John me do things. And Apple was like, rejected, rejected, rejected. Your app doesn't need this. Your app doesn't need this. You can't have this. Your app doesn't know.
⏹️ ▶️ John There's no appeal process. You can't have it. You can't have it. can't have it. It's like, why even have these entitlements? Like, you know,
⏹️ ▶️ John just if I want to like, oh my God, just some of the entitlements is getting rejected for us. Like,
⏹️ ▶️ John if an app like this can't have it, if an app like this, where you can put like a folder in a dock and click on it and open the folder and
⏹️ ▶️ John put things into it, if I can't have the entitlement that lets me do that with arbitrary folders, then what app deserves it?
⏹️ ▶️ John Because you can put arbitrary folders in a dock-like thing. And I think Apple's attitude is don't make a dock-like thing.
⏹️ ▶️ John So I pretty quickly came to the decision this is not going to be in the Mac App Store. I
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco same project where there's Jetty and Jetty
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro, but I cannot like an uh, an app
⏹️ ▶️ John like this that is any good, that has the features that I want it to have, the features that I've written for it cannot be in
⏹️ ▶️ John the Mac App Store. So I basically stopped the test flight. I took it off the member page at ATP.
⏹️ ▶️ John If you ATP.fm, if you go there, you'll see I don't even mention the test flight. All I say is, hey, do you want to be on the Jetty
⏹️ ▶️ John Pro beta? Send me an email and I'll add you to a list. And I just, you know, then you can download the beta
⏹️ ▶️ John and you can test it or whatever. So I'm all in on Jetty Pro, which is fun because the first
⏹️ ▶️ John fact item will be, why is it called Jetty Pro? Where's non-pro? Someday, maybe there will be a non-pro
⏹️ ▶️ John because in theory, I could do a lot of these things in the Mac App Store if Apple would let me
⏹️ ▶️ John have the entitlements, which they're currently not, because I literally got rejected for every single entitlement I asked for.
⏹️ ▶️ John And also, if they fulfill the feedbacks that I filed over the past five to ten years,
⏹️ ▶️ John asking for features that they don't currently provide that they totally should. But in Pro, I don't have to worry about that.
⏹️ ▶️ John I just use the private APIs and they can't stop me. So that's my plan. But
⏹️ ▶️ John of course, oh, you're going to have this thing outside the Mac App Store. How are you going to deal with payments? Well, I took a wild diversion off
⏹️ ▶️ John into figuring out how to do payments outside the Mac App Store. I actually implemented it twice,
⏹️ ▶️ John once on FastSpring, which was by far the easiest to set up and the most full-featured, And I highly
⏹️ ▶️ John endorse and recommend it because everything else was like a nightmare to even get into.
⏹️ ▶️ John But after that, I decided that I'm going to rip all that out and redo
⏹️ ▶️ John it with a combination of RevenueCat and Stripe, mostly because I'm so familiar with Stripe.
⏹️ ▶️ John And I didn't think I could use Stripe because it doesn't provide all the functionality I need. But it turns out a combination of RevenueCat,
⏹️ ▶️ John which is also very well established and used by lots of developers, combining RevenueCat with Stripe
⏹️ ▶️ John in a way that RevenueCat blesses and describes on their website and
⏹️ ▶️ John examples of Mac apps that do it. I'm like, okay. So it was a pain and I wasted a lot of time
⏹️ ▶️ John and I totally ripped out. I did a new branch for just RevenueCat and ripped out the FastSpring stuff and replaced it with RevenueCat
⏹️ ▶️ John and Stripe. And that is my plan. And as always, like the payment part is the most terrifying and complicated part
⏹️ ▶️ John of the whole stupid app because if you screw it up, it's bad. So yeah, that's the state of things.
⏹️ ▶️ John Jetty Pro, if you're an ATP member and you want to beta test Jetty Pro, there's instructions on your member page. It's
⏹️ ▶️ John still going to be a while because the app is still kind of rough. But boy, am I adding lots of features and calling lots
⏹️ ▶️ Casey I'm very happy for you.
⏹️ ▶️ Marco Honestly, I know there's some downsides to not being in the Mac App Store, but I think for
⏹️ ▶️ Marco the kind of apps that you make, I think it is good for you to get
⏹️ ▶️ Marco set up outside of there because you can do so much good without
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sandboxing and without being banned from using private APIs and stuff like that. I think it makes
⏹️ ▶️ Marco sense for John Syracusa to have direct sales of apps that do deep system things.
⏹️ ▶️ John Yeah, getting the first one for sale outside the Mac App Store is so much harder than the
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco second one. Yeah, of course. Right?
⏹️ ▶️ John Everything has to be done for the first one. And by the way, I tried Paddle and Paddle was like, talk to the hand.
⏹️ ▶️ John Paddle's like, show me your product page and your your refund policy and your terms of service.
⏹️ ▶️ John and like, I don't have a product page. My product isn't done yet. And they're like, nope, we're not going to talk to you. Screw you. Like their onboarding
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco process was so
⏹️ ▶️ John hostile. I was like, okay, well then fine. Like they, they made it seem like you already had to have a product
⏹️ ▶️ John for sale to get a product for sale with Paddle. And I'm like, well, this is chicken egg. Like, I don't understand how I bootstrapped this.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they just kept rejecting me and sending me through this thing. And it's like, sorry, we looked at your website and there's no product
⏹️ ▶️ John there. I'm like, well, of course there's no product there. It's not released yet. I tried to put up a fake page. Like, this is what the product will be like.
⏹️ ▶️ John And they're like, nope, sorry. So anyway, Fast Spring was great. I recommend it.
⏹️ ▶️ John Uh, revenue cat plus stripe. Uh, if you're familiar with those things. revenue cat is, is more modern
⏹️ ▶️ John and nicer than Fast Spring was. And Stripe is Stripe, but I just happen to be familiar with it. So yeah,
⏹️ ▶️ John I'll embark on that terrifying part when I finally get to the point where I think I have an app that is close to finished. But right now, I'm still
⏹️ ▶️ John in the development part where I'm discovering that even using private APIs, there are certain things that just don't
⏹️ ▶️ John work on the Mac. It's just terrifying. Like
⏹️ ▶️ John the most recent one was like, you know how you can label folders and they turn colored, right? And also in like 26
⏹️ ▶️ John and 27, you can put little symbols on folders. Do you any use those features in the Finder?
⏹️ ▶️ John, Marco I don't, but I
⏹️ ▶️ Marco know what you're talking about.
⏹️ ▶️ John anyway, you can do that. And if you have private APIs, you can figure out
⏹️ ▶️ John like what they're supposed to look like, which by the way, the macOS doc does not do. If you put a labeled
⏹️ ▶️ John folder into the dock on macOS 26 or 27, the dock doesn't care what the hell your label was. It will not
⏹️ ▶️ John show it. One of the reasons they don't show it is because there's no API to show it. Oh, but there's private APIs. Fine. So I
⏹️ ▶️ John get the private APIs to do that. But there is a bug where if you have a folder in iCloud
⏹️ ▶️ John Drive and you label it as like red, about a half a second later, it changes back to gray.
⏹️ ▶️ John Unconditionally, no matter what, what color you set it to, you set it to red, changes to gray.
⏹️ ▶️ John Okay. And you're like, okay, but how does the finder not show it as gray? Because the metadata
⏹️ ▶️ John is gray. Okay. It says gray, but the finder doesn't, well, turns out the finder has its own database off to the
⏹️ ▶️ John size that remembers it's supposed to be yellow.
⏹️ ▶️ John like, what the, like, how does that stand for two releases? Like, how, like, how does any once you
⏹️ ▶️ John start using private APIs, you're like, how does anything work in this operating system? First of all, you realize where they're private. And second of all,
⏹️ ▶️ John that's no way to run an OS. Okay, well, we we have a bug where the metadata on the folder will always be
⏹️ ▶️ John gray, but we want the finder to show it as yellow because the user selected it as yellow. So finder, have an off to the side database
⏹️ ▶️ John where you keep track of which folder is supposed to be yellow, even though the folder totally says gray. And when you look at the folder, oh,
⏹️ ▶️ John and by the way, if you turn off network access, if you unplug your LAN cable, so one of my testers found this out,
⏹️ ▶️ John it stays yellow. But as soon as you connect to the network again, gray.